Re: Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle
Originally posted by The Ellimist
As Palpatine's TP feats aren't as well known, here are a cliffs:- 24/7 mentally influenced/dominated the entire imperial military (trillions+) to the point where it basically collapsed without him
- enslaved and constantly drained the energies of the population of Byss (billions)
- mind-wiped the memory from witnesses of the super star destroyer Lusankya being lowered in the middle of f*cking Coruscant (trillions?)
- knew every thought (hyperbole?) of ESB Vader, even from across the galaxy
- casually read RotJ Luke's thoughts despite his efforts to resist
- mentally dominated DE Luke (note: on a DS nexus and after defeating him)
- fogged the long-term foresight of the entire PT Jedi Order
Also to add to this list, he:
[List]
[*]resisted Plagueis' TP as a 17-year-old
[*]overpowered the will of the Force
[*]tore through Yoda's mental shields and the latter is stated to be unable to resist him
[*]fogged Vader's senses from across the galaxy, which was "too easy" for him
[*]forced Vader to his knees from across the galaxy
[*]continued to dominate DE Luke outside of Byss
[*]brought DE Luke immense pain from across the galaxy
[/list]
There's more, and they can be found here:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/darth-sidioussheev-palpatine-super-respect-thread-1877280/?page=1#js-message-18672257
Also the quotes about him knowing everyone of Vader's thoughts isn't hyperbole; he literally detects them from across the galaxy on multiple occasions
Originally posted by Azronger
Also to add to this list, he:
[List]
[*]resisted Plagueis' TP as a 17-year-old
[*]overpowered the will of the Force
[*]tore through Yoda's mental shields and the latter is stated to be unable to resist him
[*]fogged Vader's senses from across the galaxy, which was "too easy" for him
[*]forced Vader to his knees from across the galaxy
[*]continued to dominate DE Luke outside of Byss
[*]brought DE Luke immense pain from across the galaxy
[/list]There's more, and they can be found here:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/darth-sidioussheev-palpatine-super-respect-thread-1877280/?page=1#js-message-18672257Also the quotes about him knowing everyone of Vader's thoughts isn't hyperbole; he literally detects them from across the galaxy on multiple occasions
👆
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Valkorion's most supposedly impressive large-scale TP feat is dominating Ziost, which is just a smaller version of Byss and this was his like magnus opus.
Anyways, this is much different from Palpatine having psychic impact on already loyal subjects. Valkorion was utilizing his TP to "subjugate" possibly billions on Ziost including hundreds of Jedi and Sith (all unwilling hosts) in order to turn the entire world into a war zone. This is a pure demonstration of ALTER on the part of Valkorion in the context of his TP abilities. And Palpatine does not have anything to compare in this respect.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Honestly, Azronger did a lot to uncover the depth of the Emperor's psychic potency. His feats unquestionably outstrip Valkorion's in terms of scale and scope.The only argument I could remotely entertain in Valk's favor is intimacy, but I'm sure Azronger could debunk that too.
Thank you for you praise, my Master. It means a lot to me.
I talked to Skillz about this feat and he conceded it is pretty conclusive, and also that it is beyond anything Valkorion ever did.
Not sure what you mean by intimacy though.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because it's the phenomenon described in the various sources provided by Ell and Azronger and Legend 2.0.Palpatine used the dark side to run the Empire in an intimate way. With his death, it literally spiraled out of control because he was no longer there to direct its energies.
Much of those sources seem to be talking about Endor, which I would attribute to Declann stopping the BM upon Sheevs death as well as probably the huge explosion of darkside energy on his death.
Other than that though, I'm not seeing anything that impresses me more than what Vitiate/Valkorion are more than capable of. I guess you could say he'd influenced the government officials and military officers or something like that. Which pales to what Vitiate could do as a child. But certainly not the 24/7 galaxy-wide horseshit that Ellimist is suggesting. There were plenty of Imperial defections and the quotes even mention conspiracies against him. Of which there are scores of examples of.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Much of those sources seem to be talking about Endor, which I would attribute to Declann stopping the BM upon Sheevs death as well as probably the huge explosion of darkside energy on his death.Other than that though, I'm not seeing anything that impresses me more than what Vitiate/Valkorion are more than capable of. I guess you could say he'd influenced the government officials and military officers or something like that. Which pales to what Vitiate could do as a child. But certainly not the 24/7 galaxy-wide horseshit that Ellimist is suggesting. There were plenty of Imperial defections and the quotes even mention conspiracies against him. Of which there are scores of examples of.
The problem is that the quotes are very explicit: the dark side was diffused because of the Emperor's death, not Declann.
The text also is explicit in the scope and scale of his dark side manipulations.
Beyond personal incredulity, no one has actually offered evidence to refute anything. 😬
He wasn't using it on trillions, you loon.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is that the quotes are very explicit: the dark side was diffused because of the Emperor's death, not Declann.The text also is explicit in the scope and scale of his dark side manipulations.
Beyond personal incredulity, no one has actually offered evidence to refute anything. 😬
The diffusion of the darkside /= anything to do with telepathy though.
We know Sidious wasn't influencing the troops at Endor, Declann was. The best you can say is that the people Sidious had previously dominated were freed. Yet the ability to alter non-force senstive minds is literally childsplay to Vitiate, even to do so permanently. That Sidious did so on many individuals is irrelevant.
At the decisive Battle of Endor, the Jedi returned to aid the Alliance in the form of Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. The Emperor was killed, his fleet scattered, and his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed. Without its binding, the Empire began to unravel.
^ this makes it clear that the absence of Palpatine's will scattered the Empire, not just the fleet at Endor, and it wasn't some sort of shockwave (though that may have initially done something too) it was the lack of his power.
And yes, the imperial fleet is trillions in personnel.
Neph, it's literally there:
Originally posted by The Ellimist
At the decisive Battle of Endor, the Jedi returned to aid the Alliance in the form of Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. The Emperor was killed, his fleet scattered, and his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed. Without its binding, the Empire began to unravel.
^ this makes it clear that the absence of Palpatine's will scattered the [b]Empire, not just the fleet at Endor, and it wasn't some sort of shockwave (though that may have initially done something too) it was the lack of his power.And yes, the imperial fleet is trillions in personnel. [/B]
Black and white. This stuff is vastly beyond what we've seen from Valkorion, honestly.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
At the decisive Battle of Endor, the Jedi returned to aid the Alliance in the form of Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. The Emperor was killed, his fleet scattered, and his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed. Without its binding, the Empire began to unravel.
^ this makes it clear that the absence of Palpatine's will scattered the [b]Empire, not just the fleet at Endor, and it wasn't some sort of shockwave (though that may have initially done something too) it was the lack of his power.And yes, the imperial fleet is trillions in personnel. [/B]
As I said, that Sidious dominated key figures is nice for him. But nothing on Valkorion.
Nothing suggests he's literally holding the Empire together all the time through sheer will. That's absurd. Its a figure of speech.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As I said, that Sidious dominated key figures is nice for him. But nothing on Valkorion.Nothing suggests he's literally holding the Empire together all the time through sheer will. That's absurd. Its a figure of speech.
Nope:
With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear. The sudden loss of coordination and fighting spirit allowed Han Solo, Princess Leia and the Rebel Commandos to disable the shield generator.
The collapse at Endor is directly linked to the overall collapse of the Empire, and resulted in the collapse of the imperial military on a personnel level, not just on a "the moffs went crazy" level or whatever you're suggesting.
And it's not a figure of speech because that's what literally f*cking happened, lol.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
That a small fraction of the trillions Palpatine dominates on a daily basis broke free doesn't change the fact that it's on a massively greater scale than anything Valkorion has ever done. Ziost, by comparison, was done on a nexus with a ritual to merely billions.
Palpatine was (not) "subjugating" countless unwilling individuals across the galaxy. If this was the case then rebellion would have never materialized. Palpatine had a "psychic impact" on his followers on a massive scale though but this is true for virtually any Emperor.
Valkorion's TP related demonstrations on Ziost fall in the ALTER spectrum of his abilities because he managed to possess the minds of billions of individuals including many Jedi and Sith - all of whom were unwilling hosts. This is not the same as having a psychic impact on loyal subjects.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nope:With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of [b]the Empire
was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear. The sudden loss of coordination and fighting spirit allowed Han Solo, Princess Leia and the Rebel Commandos to disable the shield generator.
The collapse at Endor is directly linked to the overall collapse of the Empire, and resulted in the collapse of the imperial military on a personnel level, not just on a "the moffs went crazy" level or whatever you're suggesting.And it's not a figure of speech because that's what literally f*cking happened, lol. [/B]
That quote is only talking about Endor. The whole paragraph is purely about the battle and what is happening in it:
"For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos. Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive. For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.
Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear."
From (Star Wars: Return of the Jedi)
Sure, Sidious was "the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force for the Empire" but its talking about it with respect to the battle. The diffused dark side ran rampant and caused fear and confusion in the Imperial fleet (plus Declann stopped using BM) and that let the Rebels seize the day.
Apart from that its spelled out how he held the Empire together:
"Palpatine knew precisely why the Empire couldn’t last without his dread power: he had designed it that way. No one ever suspected how much he relied on the Dark Side of the Force. He shaped those of his government by using the Force against them. He used it to control his fleets and to drive his soldiers on to victory. He used it to destroy his enemies from a distance and learn of conspiracies against him. Without it, there was no way the Empire could endure, as he had designed it. The Dark Side flowed through him like some primordial ichor and was the key to all his power."
From (Star Wars: Dark Empire Sourcebook
He shaped those of his government with it, but that doesn't mean he did so 24/7, lol. He can just mind**** them once, which is how it works in every other case. And he controls his fleets with it through Declann and his own battle meditation. But that doesn't mean he does so 24/7 either. That's ridiculously out of proportion to what the text says. And he uses it to learn of conspiracies. But that doesn't mean he TP's everyone 24/7.
You're taking things to an absurd degree.