Originally posted by ILS
Not convinced he can slow down time. Plagueis can speedblitz Maul. Maul's feat of moving so fast CCTV cameras need to be put in slow motion just to start seeing him (which includes him climbing and shit), or Plagueis moving faster than a droid can track (this specific droid being able to track the movement of blaster bolts).How is someone much slower than Plagueis being able to teleport useful? Plagueis himself likely knows how to teleport and isn't impressed by it. All Force users have precognition, which teleportation doesn't circumvent.
Well he does it on screen so it doesn't really matter what you're convinced about. I also don't give a shit about Maul. He's an insect to Valkorion and gets chumped by dogs. Not that Plagueis ever blitzed Maul. Revan is just as fast as those feats and Valkorion is just as or faster than Revan.
He isn't much faster, that's how. Even if he were Valkorion obviously has reaction speed capable of getting away from him. But really you're underestimating teleportation (which Plagueis has never used so whoop di do). Valkorion just needs to put some distance between them using it and then force a Force battle.
Originally posted by ILS
Whereas, despite all of Valkorion's rituals, schemes and machinations, the thousands of years and two empires worth of resources at his disposal, at no point did he come close to having this kind of control over the Force, never did the Dark Side become so domineering, never did he scratch that kind of immortality, etc. He just wasn't as big a deal.
You need to study Force and Destiny Core Rulebook to understand that the whole "balance of the Force" stuff is not unique to the stories of Darths Plagueis and Sidious actually. The balance has tangibly shifted over time throughout the history due to various factors actually.
Originally posted by ILS
Also, as a tidbit, he has no TP feats on par with touching the mind of every single being in the galaxy, which is one hundred quadrillion beings... not counting those not counted in a census or animals, sealife and insects.
Originally posted by ILS
Even if you think Valk is more powerful, he has no way to resist his host body being killed off.
Originally posted by ILS
Not convinced he can slow down time. Plagueis can speedblitz Maul. Maul's feat of moving so fast CCTV cameras need to be put in slow motion just to start seeing him (which includes him climbing and shit), or Plagueis moving faster than a droid can track (this specific droid being able to track the movement of blaster bolts).
Darth Marr moved so fast that Darth Lachrics felt that he teleported in front of her. And Revan had no trouble in responding to his moves. And Valkorion had no trouble in responding to the moves of both. In-fact, Valkorion struck Darth Marr before he could even make a move.
Stop assuming that Darth Plagueis has any advantage over Valkorion in the context of speed.
In-fact, slowing down the reality to the extent that it seemed as if the Force-users were not even moving - is a ridiculously stupendous demonstration of reflexes and reaction-time because this is how Valkorion wiped out an entire contingent of Knights of Zakuul and droids in a blink of an eye afterwards, before one of the Knights could even land a blow on an ally of the Outlander while his weapon was already in motion.
Originally posted by ILS
How is someone much slower than Plagueis being able to teleport useful? Plagueis himself likely knows how to teleport and isn't impressed by it. All Force users have precognition, which teleportation doesn't circumvent.
Teleportation is also an instantaneous act as apparent from the feats of Darth Jadus.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Quote? And what did he achieve from this?
He didn't. It wasn't telepathy, it was a failed attempt to use midichlorian manipulation to create life.
"But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.
Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn’t equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.
But ultimately to no end.
The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases."
Originally posted by ILS
Aside from the fact Taalon was stepping into a source of power that would make him Son-tier, the Son being a god who would probably tear the galaxy apart if he turned up, the mere fact that Luke can sense anything, can sense any kind of tipping taking place proves that this isn't the same. What Plagueis and Sidious did shrouded the Force so fully in the Dark Side, Yoda and all the others couldn't sense anything about the future.Taalon caused some tipping to start taking place, whereas Plagueis and Sidious went to war with the Force, forced it to yield, and then suffused the entire galaxy with the Dark Side such that everyone felt it. It's not anywhere as impressive.
Slight shifts in either direction is not the same thing as going to war with the Force, winning, having the Dark Side permeate everything, and the Force spawning a divine being to re-balance it. Let's go back to being honest now.
Why should I consider magnitude of the shift a valid argument when the duo of Darths Plagueis and Sidious spent months to achieve the end they desired? Did Valkorion attempt such a thing? No. Did any other Sith or practitioner of the Dark Side? No.
So what is the point in citing this phenomenon again? Another point is that why the actions of Abeloth were not having a profound impact on the balance of the Force? Why is only Valkorion supposed to be accountable in this matter?
Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't. It wasn't telepathy, it was a failed attempt to use midichlorian manipulation to create life."But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.
Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn’t equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.
But ultimately to no end.
The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases."
This is sad. Really sad.
Valkorion was casually spawning monsters of pure Dark Side energy on Ziost while partaking in other acts.
Re: The Ultimate Darth Plagueis Essay
@Azronger
But the issue here is that those Valkorion supporters who tout the Ziost feat as the pinnacle of Force usage and far beyond anything Plagueis ever achieved, fail to understand the circumstances and context of the eras that Valkorion and Plagueis lived in, respectively. Plagueis had to keep his power hidden and contained within him, in order to prevent lack of discovery by the Jedi. Any serious display of the dark side would result in the Jedi being alerted to his presence and status as a dark side user, so him not displaying any world-destroying Force powers like Valkorion wasn't due to a lack of ability, but rather necessity.
Vakorion was in the same boat prior to the Great Galactic War. In-fact, he attempted to conceal Nathema from even his own (Sith) followers during his reign as the Emperor. He also had to contend with numerous attempts on his life by both Jedi and Sith throughout the course of his existence. However, when his cover blew, all bets were off; he openly challenged both Jedi and Sith on Ziost, to attempt to stop him, but he wanted to show them that they stood no chance against his might and abilities.
You also overlooked this:
The rend that Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened in the fabric of the Force had been felt by the Jedi, and already the Order was beginning to show signs of circumspection and languor. The Republic, too, had been similarly undermined, by encouraging corruption in the Senate and lawlessness in the Outer Rim systems, which had become the dumping grounds for the Core.
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
Looks like Tenebrous's Master wasn't afraid.
So why was Darth Plagueis reluctant to do anything significant?
Check this revelation:
"We shall see what comes to pass. Until such time we must accept the fact that no mere army can overwhelm the Jedi. The ancient Sith were tens of thousands strong and failed the test. Once the galaxy teemed with warriors and warships. Now we have only isolated bands of mercenaries and star system defense forces. That’s why we must strive to return the galaxy to a state where barbarism is the norm."
"The Jedi will have to be felled from within," Sidious said, his eyes tracking Plagueis as the Muun paced the floor.
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
&
While he accepted that he and Plagueis were more than equal to the most powerful of the Jedi Order, he understood that they were no match for their combined strength—the Sith imperative notwithstanding.
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
Even Palpatine realized that both he could not challenge the Jedi Order so openly even with the aid of his Master.
Message is loud and clear. Both were not capable of replicating anything close to Ziost at the time or at any point.
Palpatine grew bold after his resurrection on Byss and he still waited 5 straight years before making his move.
Therefore, only Palpatine (DE) approach the TIER of Valkorion in confidence and humbling his opponents in an awesome display of power. Darth Plagueis is not even close.
By contrast, Valkorion - as Tenebrae - was born into a dark side magocracy far away from Coruscant and the prying eyes of the Jedi. He was free to practise the dark side to its fullest, and had an entire empire at his back. He then went on to create his own Sith Empire and was left in peace for a thousand years to experiment with the dark side as he pleases. By the time of The Old Republic, the galaxy is divided between the light and the dark, with the Sith Empire at one point controlling more than half the galaxy. Basically in a nutshell, Plagueis lived his whole life in an environment where the use of the dark side was actively persecuted, and was alone against an force of ten thousand, which included Mace Windu and Yoda; whereas Valkorion lived his whole life in an environment where the use of the dark side was encouraged and the norm, and had the backing of an entire Empire equal in might to the entirety of the Jedi Order, in which no Force user could directly challenge him or even dream of approaching his power.
Great Hyperspace War had such an impact on the survivors of the ancient Sith Empire that they went into hiding and Valkorion expended every effort to make sure that the Jedi Order would not discover the existence of his Empire until the time was right.
You might think highly of Mace Windu and Yoda but Valkorion would have eliminated any Jedi on Ziost. This is why I assert that Valkorion is beyond any mortal Force-user in strength.
That is why it is illogical to conclude that inactivity means inability on Plagueis' part, and the novel in which he stars presents no limit on his power whatsoever, whereas with Valkorion, he was free to do whatever the hell he wanted without consequences, and actively and tirelessly sought out immortality and godlike Force power, so any inactivity there can logically be attributed to inability, at least on the macro scale.
Your assessment is misplaced.
And Plagueis, contrary to what many believe, does indeed have in him what it takes to defeat the Immortal Emperor. His feats are not overt, easily digestible like for example environmental destruction or stomping other powerful Force users. They are far more subtle, and sometimes need to be gleaned from between the lines to gain proper understanding, but they are potent, and carry with them a different kind of grandiosity, one of - as Plagueis himself puts it - “galactonic” proportions.
And Valkorion has galaxy TIER demonstrations of manipulating and influencing his subjects as well.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion is easily GALAXY TIER in his manipulations and the ability to influence his subjects:Many Jedi speculate that it is only Emperor's iron will that prevents the Sith Order from collapsing into chaos as it has so often done in the past.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
NO SITH HAS generated as much curiosity, frustration, and fear among the Jedi as the Empire's dread ruler.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Now, an absent Emperor and the uneasy peace following the Great War against the Republic threaten to shatter the backbone of the Empire.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
By drawing on his incredible dark powers, the Emperor imprinted his consciousness onto unwitting pawns who would serve as vessels for carrying out his will. Through the eyes and ears of these "children," he could uncover threats in both the Empire and Republic while they were still nothing but whispers. And should the need arise, the Emperor could seize control of his children and instruct them to crush any plot that dared defy his will.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Aided by his powerful, secretive, and far-reaching powerbase, the Emperor pulls strings across the galaxy to carry out his master stroke - the details of which only Emperor knows.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
The concealed Emperor manipulates and dominates the galaxy with his far-reaching power base: the Imperial Guard, the Hand, the Voice, the Wrath, and the Children.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
THE EMPEROR fears only death. It was this dread that inspired the Emperor to possess beings to serve as the Voice and the Hand, the former to speak his will and the latter to serve as conduits through which he could control his Empire. To extent his reach and sight, the Emperor created his Children through which he could see and act on whim. For those who displeased him, the Emperor shaped the Wrath - the ultimate executioner, who lived only to strike down enemies of the Emperor and humble the galaxy. Finally, he forged the Imperial Guard as an army of devoted warriors, tasked with overwhelming the Emperor's foes and protecting his domain. With this power base, the Emperor seeks to shield himself from the dangers of mortality and make the galaxy bow before him.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
NOTE: Only the Wrath was an independent actor - by design - the rest were either pawns bind to his will or manifestations of the Emperor himself.
---
The aforementioned manipulations do not account for Valkorion's influence extending to the Empire of Zakuul.
---
Your entire essay falls flat on its face in the light of two key revelations from the novel that I provided above.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDIf it was the same ability, why wasn't Valk able to make himself immortal by creating new midichlorians, like Plagueis? It's clearly just Sith Alchemy taken to it's apex.
Oh dear.This is sad. Really sad.
Valkorion was casually spawning monsters of pure Dark Side energy on Ziost while partaking in other acts.
Will get to the rest later.
Forgive me for not quoting but I'd rather not.
So firstly, we're supposed to ignore Plagueis' lack of feats on the basis of the excuse that he's hiding his powers from the Jedi Order? Interesting, so you're saying that a wounded Plagueis can't hide his powers from the senses of Jedi on Coruscant but Exar Kun's spirit can assault Corran Horn through Kyp in a clash of Force powers and shroud it from the senses of Master Luke Skywalker less than 15 meters away?
"What happened to you?"
"Kyp didn't like the menu." I winced as a twing rang through my ribs. "We had a discussion in the hallway, you didn't feel anything?" Heads all around the hallway shook, and I felt a cold dread begin to congeal in my stomach. If Exar Kun could mask the attack on me in such a way that Master Skywalker could not feel it barely fifteen meters away, then we were up against something more powerful than I'd cared to imagine existing.
- Star Wars: I, Jedi Audiobook
Interesting observation. Though I'm glad you brought this up.
As for the vaunted imbalance feat, I mean it's a great willpower feat. That's if you assume that months of intense meditation which united Sidious and Plagueis into a single entity wasn't punching entire magnitudes above their normal weight. But again, it wasn't a feat of power, it was specifically willing the Force to shift to the dark side. All very interesting stuff, it'd be ashame if the Sith Triumvirate had turned the Republic into a dark side nexus and seemingly wrecked the balance of the Force:
The Sith seemed to have achieved the victory they had long sought. Less than one hundred Jedi, nearly all of them in hiding, survived the Sith's purge. Many citizens took this unimaginable event as proof that the Force had turned malevolent, or that cosmic balance was nothing more than a story for children. Despair was palpable, and many planets offered only halfhearted and ragged defense against Sith attackers. Planets throughout the slice surrendered, and the Sith fed on the psychic misery of a shattered Republic.
- The Essential Atlas
So as far as Valkorion is concerned, especially given how Revan's mere existence was an ever-growing cancer in the very fabric of the Force, this is kinda small change. His goal was never to cause an imbalance in the Force, but to become a God.
Valkorion does however scale off of the Dread Masters who had harnessed, mastered and perfected powers that could turn trillions insane and terraform planets into extreme, immeasurable dark side worlds. They were insignificant to Vitiate, who mind-controlled them. Vitiate being a pre-prime Valkorion.
"Our ships will deliver our devices across the galaxy; Dromund Kaas, Nar Shaddaa, Coruscant. Populations will be infected and planets overgrown."
- Calphayus, The Dread War
"The Dread Masters changed Oricon. Even their combined power is insignificant compared to the Emperor."
- The Empire's Wrath, Shadow of Revan
Now, I'm glad you referenced the Ones:
“The Jedi await the coming of a savior, a prophesied Chosen One who will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. The Jedi tell of Mortis, a place of impossible geography inside the angles of a gargantuan monolith. The three all-powerful beings of Mortis can assume strange shapes and exemplify the dark side, the light side, and the principle of balance.“Compelling? It is debatable, but at the very least it is an adequate way to illustrate an allegorical point. Day coexists with night, for example and construction is always followed by ruin. Yet many of the Jedi treat the legend of Mortis as literal truth. They believe that the Chosen One will prevent these gods and demons from tearing the universe asunder—that their champion will be a vessel of pure Force energy.”
--Darth Plagueis
Not only does Plagueis affirm the Jedi interpretation of a prophesied being meant to restore the balance of Mortis, but that very prophecy becomes a reality:
"Do you feel your destiny? You must see it now. I am dying, and you must replace me."
"Replace you? I can't stay here."
"But this is yours. It has been foretold. The Chosen One will remain to keep my children in balance."
"No."
"I cannot force you to do this. The choice must be yours. But leave and your selfishness shall haunt you and the galaxy."
- The Father and Anakin Skywalker, Altar of Mortis, Star Wars The Clone Wars
Oh and who just so happens to be getting more powerful as he realises his own potential?
"You are growing stronger, my son."
"Am I, father?"
"Vanity, however, is getting the better of you."
"How so?"
"You have done what is forbidden. You have chosen the dark side and allowed it to feed your anger and desire for power."
- The Father and the Son, The Mortis Arc, Star Wars The Clone Wars
Stranded! Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker and his Padawan Ahsoka Tano are caught in the middle of a treacherous battle between good and evil. The scales now tip toward the dark side.
- Ghosts of Mortis, The Clone Wars
Oh and no, before the Plagueis brigade try it, this Canon statement can't be reconciled with claiming causality with the imbalance feat of Legends material.
It gets better though, the Jedi prophecy was merely an interpretation of the same goal as the Father:
In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can. The Father maintained balance between his Daughter and his Son, who expressed affinity to the light and dark side of the Force, respectively. The Father knew his days were numbered -- facing his impending demise, he needed to find another to keep the balance. His goal was the same described in an ancient Jedi prophecy -- the rise of a Chosen One who will bring balance to the Force.
- Star Wars Databank
The Father keeps a fragile balance between his Daughter, who allies with the light side, and the Son, who drifts ever closer to the dark. With his strength failing, the Father asks Anakin to stay and take his place, preserving the balance between light and dark.
- Altar of Mortis, The Clone Wars
You are the Chosen One. You have brought balance to this world.
- The Father, Ghosts of Mortis
Anakin's prophecy as the Chosen One was to replace the Father and maintain the balance of the Force and the Ones of Mortis. Whatever involvement the Sith had, it was very much secondary.
As far as Midichlorian Manipulation is concerned, it's a very jagged means of controlling life and death. It's not unimpressive by any means, but unless you're completely ignorant of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Not only do we see Revan continuing to live despite his body being literally dead but the Dread Masters have resurrected the dead before, Kephess and their own number being examples of this:
"Once, we were mortals, and we dreamed of mortal things. Now we are beyond man, woman, or Sith."
―Dread Master Bestia
"... though their lifespans have extended well beyond the norm for that species. We do not know the extent of their longevity,""Their appearance alone tells us a great deal, as they are clearly centuries old."
―Master Gnost-Dural, Record of the Dread Masters
"Our union has transcended death."
―Dread Master Calphayus
Although the details of what exactly the Dread Masters did to Kephess remain unknown, it’s clear that he has been imbued with some portion of their considerable power, managing to fully recover from fatal injuries.
- Kephess Codex Entry
It is time that I thank you for shattering that weak body so I could be remade. Look upon the chosen! See what death could not claim!"
- Kephess the Undying
All of the aforementioned are utterly insignificant next to the power of Vitiate, nevermind Valkorion. You've made the mistake of equating eternal life with actual bonified immortality through Godhood. This was Valkorion's true goal.
As far as Naboo's winter goes, colour me unimpressed when the Dread Masters achieved far greater feats of corruption on their own, as noted previously.
This is an outright lie as far as Ziost is concerned. The quote is clearly stating that unlike the Nathema Ritual or the weapon on Yavin IV, the Ziost cataclysm was a display of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.
He is likewise confirmed to be greater in every way to Darth Nihilus, a multi-planet killer:
"I'm trying to stop the most destructive evil the galaxy has ever seen!"
- Revan, Shadow of Revan
The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.
- The Emperor's Fallen Jedi Codex Entry
The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
I mean, quantify landscape? But hey, that's a cute lightning feat. The building Valkorion is shooting lightning out of dwarfs skyscrapers beneath it, and the lightning itself is merely the discharge that surrounds Arcann who tanks the brunt of it. I'm really not seeing how this is very impressive for Plagueis whatsoever.
Really? Physical augmentation feats. Well given how a sub-Peak Decieved Malgus can percieve the FTL jump of a ship and appear to simultanepusly exist in a dozen places at once. That speed feat wank isn't much in a Valkorion comparison. Not when he can percieve time at a standstill.
All the other feats are essentially replicated by Valk's inferiors and I'm not wasting my time on those.
Valkorion is vastly more powerful than Plagueis, no question.
Originally posted by ILS
If it was the same ability, why wasn't Valk able to make himself immortal by creating new midichlorians, like Plagueis? It's clearly just Sith Alchemy taken to it's apex.Will get to the rest later.
Palpatine's thoughts and taunts while assaulting Darth Plagueis:
Momentarily taken aback, Sidious stood absolutely still. Was Plagueis so self-deluded as to believe that he had achieved immortality?
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
&
"There's the rub, you see," Sidious said in a philosophical tone. "All the ones you experimented on, killed, and brought back to life … They were little more than toys. Now, though, you get to experience it from their side, and look what you discover: in a body that is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midichlorians can't accomplish what you're asking of them."
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
&
Plagueis slid to the floor and rolled facedown. Death rattled his lungs and he died.
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
Not saying that immortality implies invulnerability but nothing affirms that Darth Plagueis managed to prolong his life for indefinite period much like Valkorion.
Darth Plagueis reversed his aging to an extent which implies that he prolonged his life for some decades.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Forgive me for not quoting but I'd rather not.So firstly, we're supposed to ignore Plagueis' lack of feats on the basis of the excuse that he's hiding his powers from the Jedi Order? Interesting, so you're saying that a wounded Plagueis can't hide his powers from the senses of Jedi on Coruscant but Exar Kun's spirit can assault Corran Horn through Kyp in a clash of Force powers and shroud it from the senses of Master Luke Skywalker less than 15 meters away?
Oh please. The Banite Sith hid under the noses from the Jedi Order and the Republic for 1000 years and your point is that Plagueis once got detected while near-death and fighting for his life?
Interesting observation. Though I'm glad you brought this up.As for the vaunted imbalance feat, I mean it's a great willpower feat. That's if you assume that months of intense meditation which united Sidious and Plagueis into a single entity wasn't punching entire magnitudes above their normal weight. But again, it wasn't a feat of power, it was specifically willing the Force to shift to the dark side. All very interesting stuff, it'd be ashame if the Sith Triumvirate had turned the Republic into a dark side nexus and seemingly wrecked the balance of the Force:
😆 Your counter to a shift in power so blatant that the Force itself needed to spawn Anakin and the Jedi's Force abilities were clouded even at the height of their power is that some "citizens" interpreted the Republic's apparent defeat as the dark side winning?
Even if we took your quote as remotely meaningful and not the perspective of non-Force sensitives on the "cosmic balance", the Plagueis novel makes it a point to differentiate what Sidious and Plagueis did from a mere "unbalancing" of the Force that happens when a lot of powerful dark siders show up. You may notice that Sidious and Plagueis didn't overpower or hunt down the Jedi to do it; they exerted their dominance on the Force while master Yoda and company were still there! From both that description and Sidious's transcendence following Plagueis's death it's clear that there's no comparison between these vague, trivial unbalances you can pull and what this duo accomplished long before their primes.
So as far as Valkorion is concerned, especially given how Revan's mere existence was an ever-growing cancer in the very fabric of the Force, this is kinda small change. His goal was never to cause an imbalance in the Force, but to become a God.
Yet he failed to become immortal while Sidious speculates that Plagueis had essentially succeeded, breathing apparatus notwithstanding. Mind you, Sidious's own intentions to become a God were being accomplished far faster than Vitiate's 1000+ year plan, and we can speculate that Plagueis could've done similar, given that he was increasing his own Force potential.
Valkorion does however scale off of the Dread Masters who had harnessed, mastered and perfected powers that could turn trillions insane and terraform planets into extreme, immeasurable dark side worlds. They were insignificant to Vitiate, who mind-controlled them. Vitiate being a pre-prime Valkorion.
OK, cool story. Not exactly on the same cosmic level of power as Plagueis.
Now, I'm glad you referenced the Ones:Not only does Plagueis affirm the Jedi interpretation of a prophesied being meant to restore the balance of Mortis, but that very prophecy becomes a reality:
Oh and who just so happens to be getting more powerful as he realises his own potential?
Oh and no, before the Plagueis brigade try it, this Canon statement can't be reconciled with claiming causality with the imbalance feat of Legends material.
LMFAO.
Not only has Pablo confirmed the Chosen One was created to combat Plagueis's MM, but there's no mutual exclusivity between the Son growing more powerful and Plagueis's unbalancing because, you know, the two contain a pretty obvious causal link (Plagueis's feat made the Son stronger). This is, of course, ignoring the fact that:
1. This shift just happens to occur within the same month that Sidious and Plagueis meditate.
2. The specific details of the Son growing stronger are not Legends.
So no, this is a non-retcon and you still have to accept the fact that Plagueis presented a cosmic threat to the Force on the level never seen before.
It gets better though, the Jedi prophecy was merely an interpretation of the same goal as the Father:Anakin's prophecy as the Chosen One was to replace the Father and maintain the balance of the Force and the Ones of Mortis. Whatever involvement the Sith had, it was very much secondary.
Nope, because this isn't Legends, and because multiple sources confirm that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy, including Lucas himself. There are multiple ways to skin a cat. 👆
As far as Midichlorian Manipulation is concerned, it's a very jagged means of controlling life and death. It's not unimpressive by any means, but unless you're completely ignorant of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Not only do we see Revan continuing to live despite his body being literally dead but the Dread Masters have resurrected the dead before, Kephess and their own number being examples of this:
What you're missing here is that:
1. Plagueis is the only Sith in Star Wars to that point who could have actually become immortal. Had Sidious not suffocated him, it's implied that he would've succeeded in his goal, given that he had already successfully boosted his own potential and reversed his aging. Vitiate, by comparison, was not truly immortal and would've eventually died.
2. Plagueis's control over MM was so powerful that he, while drunk, tanked the full Force lightning of Darth Sidious, who already had chronologically received a "most powerful sith of all time" accolade, for an extended period of time without suffering physical damage. He only died because his breathing apparatus failed and he suffocated; the actual lightning wasn't physically killing him.
3. Plagueis states that using MM to kill is much easier than using it to heal, so if he can heal in real-time from Sidious's full powered lightning, he could basically one-shot anyone save a select few beings with it.
4. Plagueis achieved all this in less than a century. What had Vitiate accomplished in a century again? Remember that learning rate is going to be correlated with their overall aptitude.
All of the aforementioned are utterly insignificant next to the power of Vitiate, nevermind Valkorion. You've made the mistake of equating eternal life with actual bonified immortality through Godhood. This was Valkorion's true goal.
A goal he never succeeded at, so what's the point?
As far as Naboo's winter goes, colour me unimpressed when the Dread Masters achieved far greater feats of corruption on their own, as noted previously.
Just by their arrival?
This is an outright lie as far as Ziost is concerned. The quote is clearly stating that unlike the Nathema Ritual or the weapon on Yavin IV, the Ziost cataclysm was a display of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.
...which means nothing, lol.
He is likewise confirmed to be greater in every way to Darth Nihilus, a multi-planet killer:
Via a savant-style ability, sure. But only your second quote is OOU, and guess what, Plagueis has a blurb putting him above Nihilus and sith-Vitiate too.
I mean, quantify landscape? But hey, that's a cute lightning feat. The building Valkorion is shooting lightning out of dwarfs skyscrapers beneath it, and the lightning itself is merely the discharge that surrounds Arcann who tanks the brunt of it. I'm really not seeing how this is very impressive for Plagueis whatsoever.
That's not really a landscape but OK.
Really? Physical augmentation feats. Well given how a sub-Peak Decieved Malgus can percieve the FTL jump of a ship and appear to simultanepusly exist in a dozen places at once. That speed feat wank isn't much in a Valkorion comparison. Not when he can percieve time at a standstill.
The difference here is that in addition to being more powerful in the Force, Plagueis is also a vastly superior close quarters combatant; Valkorion relies on just being so much more powerful than everyone around him that he doesn't need to actually be a competent fighter (and nexuses, of course).
All the other feats are essentially replicated by Valk's inferiors and I'm not wasting my time on those.
Which of his inferiors tanked full power lightning from the most powerful sith lord in history again?
Valkorion is vastly more powerful than Plagueis, no question.
Nope. The Force clearly thinks otherwise. Plagueis is cosmically a vastly greater threat than Valkorion ever was. It's like comparing Thanos to Vulture.
Those are saying "lol Krayt unbalanced the Force too" are missing the point: the novel explicitly differentiates between a mere tipping of the balance and what Plagueis and Sidious pulled off. The Force itself considers them far, far greater threats than Valkorion ever was, given that Anakin >>>>>>>>> The Outlander as a contingency plan.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
There was no wrestling in their effort. They felt that the Force had yielded but the Force had other plans - Anakin Skywalker happened and he coupled with his children brought an end to reign of Palpatine.
The Force had fought back on several occasions except that one, because the eventual counterattack was Anakin, as you said. And Anakin is the most powerful counterattack the Force has ever used on anyone.
You are missing the point. Why Abeloth not had a profound impact on the balance of the Force?
Presumably she did? But she was imprisoned in Sinkhole station; Abeloth presented a sufficient threat that the Son and Daughter were needed to restrain her, and later she was released as a consequence of Caedus's changing the will of the Force. So Abeloth has similar cosmic importance attached to her. Valkorion does not.
Again, Post-pool Taalon's strength is irrelevant. His very act of dipping himself into Font of Power was sufficient to nudge the Force towards Dark Side.
Because it made him powerful...
What was your point again?
A big piss over months of efforts of Palpatine-Plagueis collective for the same end, if you ask me.
Lol you downplay them for taking months while Vitiate took a thousand years with a nexus to do a small fraction of that on a cosmic scale. 👆