Why is Teleportation being brought up? Even Sheev's lowliest stooges could do it. Let's not pretend Plagueis can't, after learning to master any Force ability by willing it so.
When has Valkorion ever used Teleportation anyway, aside from as a spirit, which according to the Jedi Academy Training Manual all spirits can do as the ability is part of their inherent nature as discorporate entities rather than a regular Force technique.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Oh please. The Banite Sith hid under the noses from the Jedi Order and the Republic for 1000 years and your point is that Plagueis once got detected while near-death and fighting for his life?
No. Az's point is that Plagueis' feat was detected by the Jedi. My point is that it's pathetically easy to shroud such disturbances.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
😆 Your counter to a shift in power so blatant that the Force itself needed to spawn Anakin and the Jedi's Force abilities were clouded even at the height of their power is that some "citizens" interpreted the Republic's apparent defeat as the dark side winning?
1.Anakin's prophecy being about the Ones of Mortis was confirmed by Lucas who wrote the fvcking arc, Ell. It's even speculated that the Father wrote the prophecy in the first place.
2.The point isn't that the citizens of the Slice believed the balance was non-existent. The point is that the Republic had been shattered and that the Sith could literally feed on the power of the galaxy spanning despair they had induced by conquering a massive section of the galaxy.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yet he failed to become immortal while Sidious speculates that Plagueis had essentially succeeded, breathing apparatus notwithstanding. Mind you, Sidious's own intentions to become a God were being accomplished far faster than Vitiate's 1000+ year plan, and we can speculate that Plagueis could've done similar, given that he was increasing his own Force potential.
Valkorion achieved a higher degree of immortality than Plagueis did. He not only achieved eternal life where his body would never succumb to aging or degradation, but he also achieved enough power post-Yavin IV to not just survive as a spirit, but possess millions of Sith and Jedi, create nigh-immortal Monoliths out of raw dark side energy and consume Ziost with a death field.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
OK, cool story. Not exactly on the same cosmic level of power as Plagueis.
Given Plagueis has never displayed an actual bonified feat by himself that can equate to anything of the sort . . .
Originally posted by The Ellimist
LMFAO.Not only has Pablo confirmed the Chosen One was created to combat Plagueis's MM, but there's no mutual exclusivity between the Son growing more powerful and Plagueis's unbalancing because, you know, the two contain a pretty obvious causal link (Plagueis's feat made the Son stronger). This is, of course, ignoring the fact that:
1. This shift just happens to occur within the same month that Sidious and Plagueis meditate.
2. The specific details of the Son growing stronger are not Legends.
So no, this is a non-retcon and you still have to accept the fact that Plagueis presented a cosmic threat to the Force on the level never seen before.
Them causing a shift in the dark side isn't in contention. Anakin Skywalker being the result of that is. Per Disney Canon, Legends is considered to be literally just that within Disney Canon itself. Equivalent to real-world mythology. The Mortis arc subverts Plagueis.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nope, because this isn't Legends, and because multiple sources confirm that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy, including Lucas himself. There are multiple ways to skin a cat. 👆
Lucas himself wrote the Mortis arc, and as per Dave Filoni, the prophecy of the Chosen One was an integral part of the entire arc that Lucas wanted to create.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
What you're missing here is that:1. Plagueis is the only Sith in Star Wars to that point who could have actually become immortal. Had Sidious not suffocated him, it's implied that he would've succeeded in his goal, given that he had already successfully boosted his own potential and reversed his aging. Vitiate, by comparison, was not truly immortal and would've eventually died.
The Emperor is one thousand years old. In a dark side ritual, he drained the life of his home planet, to achieve immortality.
- Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion
Don't mistake immortality with genuine god-like invincibility.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
2. Plagueis's control over MM was so powerful that he, while drunk, tanked the full Force lightning of Darth Sidious, who already had chronologically received a "most powerful sith of all time" accolade, for an extended period of time without suffering physical damage. He only died because his breathing apparatus failed and he suffocated; the actual lightning wasn't physically killing him.
Plagueis' ability to control his own midichlorians is at a faster rate than Sheev's lightning can kill him. Given Valkorion can genuinely freeze time when he regains full power in Chapter 9 of KOTET, I'm afraid Plagueis ain't manipulating a damn thing.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
3. Plagueis states that using MM to kill is much easier than using it to heal, so if he can heal in real-time from Sidious's full powered lightning, he could basically one-shot anyone save a select few beings with it.
Good job Tenebrae is merely possessing hosts and can body swap.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
4. Plagueis achieved all this in less than a century. What had Vitiate accomplished in a century again? Remember that learning rate is going to be correlated with their overall aptitude.
Creating a vastly more complex holocron than Bane had difficulty creating, as a pre-teen. Dominating, Force-stripping and soul-rending Lord Dramath by 13. Becoming the apprentice of Marka Ragnos. Achieving his stated supreme potential amongst the ancient Sith. Also enacting a ritual which granted him eternal life, and empowering him with the largest nexus the galaxy would ever see.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
A goal he never succeeded at, so what's the point?
It's a goal he's strongly implied to be capable of doing without ritual aid, yes.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Just by their arrival?
Their devices were going to simultaneously drive the populations insane and turn the planets into Oricon-like dark side worlds. Not by their arrival, of course, but given the feats are vastly more dangerous then I'm confident that doesn't really matter.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
...which means nothing, lol.
It means it wasn't a ritual, which he claimed meant otherwise.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Via a savant-style ability, sure. But only your second quote is OOU, and guess what, Plagueis has a blurb putting him above Nihilus and sith-Vitiate too.
The second and third quotes are OOU and Revan's statement is canonically accurate. But no, I'm afraid a disputable claim isn't going to cut it when both have greater feats than he ever achieved.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's not really a landscape but OK.
The OP was making a pretty nonsensical rant about FL in the first place.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The difference here is that in addition to being more powerful in the Force, Plagueis is also a vastly superior close quarters combatant; Valkorion relies on just being so much more powerful than everyone around him that he doesn't need to actually be a competent fighter (and nexuses, of course).
Actually, given he was drawing knowledge from Revan, the Hero of Tython, etc., then he's probably a far better lightsaber duelist than most consider him to be. But given Valkorion simutaneously dominated the Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann whilst surrounded, such competency or lack thereof is irrelevant.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Which of his inferiors tanked full power lightning from the most powerful sith lord in history again?
Vitiate in a Voss host waged a mental and Force-based war with Sel-Makor, a Force entity with the strength to warp realities and stalemated him whilst simultaneously placing his energy in dominating the Dread Masters, Vaylin, the Hero of Tython and more. Whilst also providing the First Son enough power to shroud thousands of Children of the Emperor, each of them themselves empowered beyond what 'any Sith could achieve'. When the First Son was destroyed and the Children were revealed to the Jedi Order, the disturbance in the Force was described as the dark side itself screaming at the Jedi Order.
That's more impressive.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nope. The Force clearly thinks otherwise. Plagueis is cosmically a vastly greater threat than Valkorion ever was. It's like comparing Thanos to Vulture.
Valkorion threatened the very existence of the Force to a degree that the Force shit itself upon Revan planning to resurrect him, and sent visions to Jedi and Sith across the galaxy. 😂
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/6Uwne1F
Azronger facing the TOR brigade [2017 colorized]
Originally posted by Haschwalth
The Energy released from Valkorians death was so powerful, it caused force users like Satele shan to nearly blackout, across the galaxy. He Physically affected all force users, not just cosmically.(which is easier to screw with on a larger scale.)
The energy released from Plagueis' death shook Coruscant and tugged the dark matter of the galaxy, rearranging the orbits of planets and stars.
Valk takes another L.
Originally posted by Azronger
The energy released from Plagueis' death shook Coruscant and tugged the dark matter of the galaxy, rearranging the orbits of planets and stars.Valk takes another L.
And the novel itself refute your leap of logics in regards to powers of Darth Plagueis and Palpatine. See my rebuttal.
Originally posted by Azronger
The energy released from Plagueis' death shook Coruscant and tugged the dark matter of the galaxy, rearranging the orbits of planets and stars.Valk takes another L.
Yeah nah, it only shook coruscant, and made stars flicker, which ain't impressive considering a mid tier such as Brakiss has done similar.
Their are over 10 million inhabital star systems in the galaxy and valks death, affected the Force user's over all that area.
Plageuis takes another loss.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Concession accepted. 👆
There are a lot of contradictions in fiction, but we don't simply cast away the feats.
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Yeah nah, it only shook coruscant, and made stars flicker, which ain't impressive considering a mid tier such as Brakiss has done similar.Their are over 10 million inhabital star systems in the galaxy and valks death, affected the Force user's over all that area.
Plageuis takes another loss.
So shaking Corsucant isn't impressive? 'K. You do understand that if X does something impressive, it raises X rather than lower everyone else who has accomplished the same, do you? Quote for Brakiss causing the planet he was standing on to shake and stars all over the galaxy to flicker with his power, btw?
This is what the text says:
A tremor took hold of the planet.
Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves.
[...]
To some the stars and planets might seem to be moving as ever, destined to align in configurations calculated long before their fiery births. But in fact the heavens had been perturbed, tugged by dark matter into novel alignments.
Darth Plagueis
Take it literally or nor, I'll continue to use as long as people continue to spout the baseless claim that Valkorion's death caused every sub-Satele Force user to faint.
Gazing at the stormy suns, Brakiss raised his arms to each side, spreading his fingers. His silvery robe flowed around him as if knit from silken spiderwebs. He stared into the swirling flares of the Denarii Nova. “Observe, Zekk-and learn.”Closing his eyes, the Master of the Shadow Academy began to move his hands. Zekk watched through the observation port, his green eyes widening.
The ocean of rarefied incandescent gases between the dying stars started to swirl like arms of fire… writhing, changing shape, dancing in time with the hand motions Brakiss made. The dark teacher was manipulating the starfire itself!
He whispered to Zekk without opening his eyes, without observing the effect of his work. “The Force is in all things,” Brakiss said, “from the smallest pebble to the largest star. This is just a glimmer of how Naga Sadow reached out to the stars and delivered a mortal wound five thousand years ago."
“Could you make the sun explode?” Zekk asked in awe.
Brakiss opened his eyes and looked at his young student. His smooth, perfect forehead creased. “I don’t know,” he said. “And I don’t believe I ever want to try.”
Zekk remembered the way Brakiss had enticed him to experiment with his innate Jedi powers, by giving him a flarestick and showing how simple it was to draw shapes in the flames with the Force. Here in the Denarii Nova, Brakiss had done the same thing-only on a scale the size of a star system.
— From Young Jedi Knights: Lightsabers, Chapter 6
He screwed with a star, and the guy is fodder, compared to the likes of Exar Kun.
Star's were only flickering in nearby star systems, from plageuis feat, so it's not as big as you claim it to be. Did the Jedi Order feel the full affect from it?