Originally posted by LordOfTheLightWhy? Yoda is presumably excluding himself and Windu from the list and Anakin is 'disqualified' as a loose cannon. On the other hand given Yoda's intimate knowledge of both Windu & Dooku I see no reason to dismiss him as an authority on their abilities. Which he is.
As per DR Dooku is also the Jedi Order's most gifted apprentice. I needn't point out that this is blatantly false.
Even as of ROTS sources have him nearly equal go Yoda in power. Mace being equal to Yoda isn't by Vaapad at all(which is never even mentioned in these sources), it is stated across many timelines, not just ROTS.Right these are all I've been able to dredge up:
Along with Mace Windu, a senior member of the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful member of the Jedi Order.--Star Wars Fact Files
Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.--Star Wars Fact Files
That was why Mace was on the Jedi Council. That was why, except for Yoda, Obi-Wan thought him the most powerful Jedi he'd ever known.--Jedi Quest: The False Peace
Qui-Gon brought his eyes back to Mace Windu and Yoda, the ones he must convince, the ones most respected and powerful of those who sat in judgment.If you have some more provide them, because given that Windu being as per Gillard second only to Yoda in the Jedi Order (quite literally alongside him in the pecking order), there is no reason to assume they are claiming anything more, especially when some of the same sources described Yoda as "unparalleled" and Windu's pre-RotS abilities fall woefully short of the alternative.--The Phantom Menace novel
Your statement about the power "not touching" him is in regards to Palpatine's lightning not touching him, not that the power he channelizes is somehow independent of his capacity.On what possible grounds? Read the sentence again:
It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.At no point does Palpatine's lightning physically pass into (and out) of Mace, his "power" however does, and seemingly "without touching him." Again, Vaapad is described as creating a superconductor, let's be very clear on what that means:
Superconductivity is the phenomenon of exactly zero electrical resistance [...]
the phenomenon of almost perfect conductivity [...]
Superconductivity is the ability of certain metals to allow electricity to pass through them without any resistance [...]I won't delve into the science because the author likely didn't either. But the inference is clear, Vaapad transforms Windu into a near perfect conduit, enhancing his ability to channel the Force and limit the friction to a point of practical non-contact.https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/superconductivity
A simple refutation is in order when we clearly see that Mace is strained by deflecting Palpatine's lightning.To your own argument, sure, as by that argument Windu should have started experiencing the effects that you previously described. He did not, only began to lose control over the lightning. Lightning that was described as beyond Vaapad - not Windu as an individual, but the form (as a superconductor) itself.
There is no zero resistance at all, he is simply channeling more power from his potential reserves than he does under base conditions. He charges his own power and unleashes it in a matter of seconds, Vaapad merely creates the perfect channel for it. Which is applicable for anyone, not just Palpatine.Through Vaapad he channels his own inner darkness and the darkness of his opponent, but no, Windu absolutely cannot reach this level of performance without a dark-sider megalith like Sidious to draw from. And his ability to do so certainly isn't limited by his potential.
Originally posted by RockydonovangGillard. 😐
Says who?
Mace is 8 bordering on 9 [...]Windu taps into the dark side to reach nine, and in Legends Windu taps into the dark side using Vaapad.[...] The difference between 8 & 9 [...] is a cheat, that's when you go to the dark side.
But without it he's an 8, guess who else is an 8? Dooku, Kenobi, Maul, and not Yoda. This is very clear cut, he uses Vaapad to cheat. 👆
With Vapaad, Mace matched Sidious as a 9. That Mace's ability to compete with Sidious is tied to Vapaad is a claim you've yet to provide any proof for.Is there any substance to this other than semantics? To compete and to stalemate are not mutually exclusive. Now let's look at what Lucas did, or rather didn't say:
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor..."
Namely, in what context. You're using this as a carte blanche to claim Windu can compete with Sidious tier fighters anytime anywhere. And yet Windu stalemating Sidious in RotS, with Vaapad, at that time and that alone, fulfils the burden of Lucas' statement just fine, and there is no reason to assume he is implying anything else.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor..."Namely, in what context. You're using this as a carte blanche to claim Windu can compete with Sidious tier fighters anytime anywhere. And yet Windu stalemating Sidious in RotS, with Vaapad, at that time and that alone, fulfils the burden of Lucas' statement just fine, and there is no reason to assume he is implying anything else.
lul, that's bullshit. If Lucas meant what you are saying then the quote would look like this: "You have to be either amped Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
Originally posted by ILS👆
All he said was that you have to be Windu or Yoda. Not a specific level of power. He didn't describe the means of victory, only that only those two characters are capable of it, somehow.
Interesting that he left Annie out of the quote.The full quote is: "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
The point is feg, you don't say you have to be a specific someone to compete with Sidious if that someone actually can't compete without circumstances. It makes no sense.
But Vaapad is an ability mastered by Mace. There's no circunstances at all if the Jedi can access it by his own merits.
Originally posted by cs_zoltanCircumstances that were tied, inextricably, to Windu's particular set of skills. 👆
The point is feg, you don't say you have to be a specific someone to compete with Sidious if that someone actually can't compete without circumstances. It makes no sense.
But I don't really care what Lucas has to say tbh, and I don't have to in this case, as he says nothing of substance in that statement.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why? Yoda is presumably excluding himself and Windu from the list and Anakin is 'disqualified' as a loose cannon. On the other hand given Yoda's intimate knowledge of both Windu & Dooku I see no reason to dismiss him as an authority on their abilities. Which he is.Right these are all I've been able to dredge up: If you have some more provide them, because given that Windu being as per Gillard second only to Yoda in the Jedi Order (quite literally alongside him in the pecking order), there is no reason to assume they are claiming anything more, especially when some of the same sources described Yoda as "unparalleled" and Windu's pre-RotS abilities fall woefully short of the alternative.
On what possible grounds? Read the sentence again:At no point does Palpatine's lightning physically pass into (and out) of Mace, his "power" however does, and seemingly "without touching him." Again, Vaapad is described as creating a [b]superconductor
, let's be very clear on what that means:I won't delve into the science because the author likely didn't either. But the inference is clear, Vaapad transforms Windu into a near perfect conduit, enhancing his ability to channel the Force and limit the friction to a point of practical non-contact.To your own argument, sure, as by that argument Windu should have started experiencing the effects that you previously described. He did not, only began to lose control over the lightning. Lightning that was described as beyond Vaapad - not Windu as an individual, but the form (as a superconductor) itself.
Through Vaapad he channels his own inner darkness and the darkness of his opponent, but no, Windu absolutely cannot reach this level of performance without a dark-sider megalith like Sidious to draw from. And his ability to do so certainly isn't limited by his potential. [/B]
1. There are obviously more, lol. I am on the mobile so formatting will be crap.
Clearly Master Windu was as in tune with the force as any Jedi in the Republic.
Credit: Outbound Flight
Though Yoda's junior by eight centuries, Mace is seen as Yoda's equal in the Jedi Order, and he is a senior member of the Jedi Council.
Credit: Revised Core Rulebook
Though Yoda's junior by hundreds of years, Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight, and command.
Credit: Power of the Jedi
Mace Windu, the Council's greatest battlefield general and warrior.
Credit: Absolutely everything you need to know about Star Wars
And there is this:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111291526/6060472-9828404798-1O92D.jpg
Plus another quote I can't access currently, putting Mace as "nearly" equal to Yoda in power.
There are "many" more quotes declaring equality between Yoda and Mace in terms of lightsaber skills so I think that should drive the point home firmly. More than that, the intent should be pretty clear.
As for DR, I am talking about objective narration putting Dooku as the most gifted apprentice of the Jedi Order, which is blatantly false. The novelization clearly has an inflated opinion on Dooku.
2. Hmm. I think you are misrepresenting the "resistance" part of the argument here. All your talks on it being a superconductor without resistance simply means that the flow of power from Mace to Sidious was uninterrupted by any resistance.
Notice that it also says that Sidious was part of the loop. Which means that power flows into and out of Sidious too without any resistance. Obviously, that has nothing to do with the capacity or how much power you channelize, which is different as a concept itself.
But here is what it is:
"Vaapad is a channel for darkness and the darkness flowed both ways".
You seem to be under some sort of delusion that all the power is being supplied by Sidious and Mace is just reflecting it back, by some conducting loop. First off, this is blatantly false as Vaapad requires a barely contained explosion of power to be held within the user, and directed as per the opponent's capabilities. Which is exactly what happens here, because the darkness flows both ways. That is, as Sidious pours his power into Mace, Mace does the exact same to Sidious. Hence the darkness flowing both ways.
As Ant said, Mace is containing all the power in himself, rather than releasing it at one go and then channelizing it, like the flow of water or current. By Vaapad, he is able to create a perfect channel for that power so as to maintain an impasse with his opponent.
Which brings us back to square one. The power is all Mace's own, and Vaapad is merely a channel for it( something that has been made pretty clear even in the ROTS novel). A force power meant for channelizing your power in an effective manner aside from the lightsaber style, is Vaapad.
Clearly Master Windu was as in tune with the force as any Jedi in the Republic.I searched Outbound Flight and only found this:Credit: Outbound Flight
Obi-Wan felt a frown crease his forehead. Jedi Master Mace Windu, as closely attuned with the Force as any Jedi in the Republic... and yet he hadn't foreseen something this dramatic?Suffice to say it's no more than Kenobi's opinion, who nonetheless admits elsewhere:
That was why Mace was on the Jedi Council. That was why, except for Yoda, Obi-Wan thought him the most powerful Jedi he'd ever known.That he's still less powerful than Yoda. 👆Jedi Quest: The False Peace
Though Yoda's junior by eight centuries, Mace is seen as Yoda's equal in the Jedi Order, and he is a senior member of the Jedi Council.Credit: Revised Core Rulebook
Though Yoda's junior by hundreds of years, Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight, and command.I highlighted the key words, both sources imply this is merely the perception of his peers (though evidently not all of them), not an actual fact.Credit: Power of the Jedi
Mace Windu, the Council's greatest battlefield general and warrior.Canon. This poll is Legends only. Though I would note neither of these things necessarily translate into superiority as a warrior in general only in terms of his battlefield accomplishments, with Yoda being typically stylised as rarely participating in battle and a reluctant fighter.Credit: Absolutely everything you need to know about Star Wars
Originally posted by LordOfTheLightAgain, understand that this is the same Fact Files that described Yoda's Force ability as "incomparable".
And there is this:https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111291526/6060472-9828404798-1O92D.jpg
Plus another quote I can't access currently, putting Mace as "nearly" equal to Yoda in power.And there are just as many that describe Yoda as the greatest, unmatched, and without peer. Plus quotes that put Dooku in there league as well. Nah, there is no sense arguing this is "clear cut" when we are dealing with sources that contradict themselves within the same series. 😂There are "many" more quotes declaring equality between Yoda and Mace in terms of lightsaber skills so I think that should drive the point home firmly. More than that, the intent should be pretty clear.
But if we approach the subject from feats alone then yes, it is very clear.
As for DR, I am talking about objective narration putting Dooku as the most gifted apprentice of the Jedi Order, which is blatantly false. The novelization clearly has an inflated opinion on Dooku.If you are referring to this:
On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.I wouldn't say that's particularly fair, as taken within the contexts of the scene preceding it in which Yoda describes Dooku as there "greatest student/greatest failure", and it is clearly nothing more than a narrative link. The same narrative that admits Anakin is more gifted than the Count. 😬
2. Hmm. I think you are misrepresenting the "resistance" part of the argument here. All your talks on it being a superconductor without resistance simply means that the flow of power from Mace to Sidious was uninterrupted by any resistance.Thanks to Vaapad the flow of power is frictionless yes, which means Windu can channel more power through himself that he'd usually be capable of, without running the risk of having his atoms fly apart.Notice that it also says that Sidious was part of the loop. Which means that power flows into and out of Sidious too without any resistance. Obviously, that has nothing to do with the capacity or how much power you channelize, which is different as a concept itself.
But here is what it is:No that's not what I said. This is what I said:"Vaapad is a channel for darkness and the darkness flowed both ways".
You seem to be under some sort of delusion that all the power is being supplied by Sidious and Mace is just reflecting it back, by some conducting loop. First off, this is blatantly false as Vaapad requires a barely contained explosion of power to be held within the user, and directed as per the opponent's capabilities. Which is exactly what happens here, because the darkness flows both ways. That is, as Sidious pours his power into Mace, Mace does the exact same to Sidious. Hence the darkness flowing both ways.
Through Vaapad he channels his own inner darkness and the darkness of his opponent, but no, Windu absolutely cannot reach this level of performance without a dark-sider megalith like Sidious to draw from. And his ability to do so certainly isn't limited by his potential.And regardless of whether it requires him to hold a "barely contained explosion of power" - or in other words hold a charge - his ability to do so remains amplified by Vaapad's superconducting qualities.
As Ant said, Mace is containing all the power in himself, rather than releasing it at one go and then channelizing it, like the flow of water or current. By Vaapad, he is able to create a perfect channel for that power so as to maintain an impasse with his opponent.I would dispute in this particular instance that Mace is withholding Palpatine's power (and that that extract is referring exclusively to the wielder's inner darkness), as the flow of power is described as indeed constant and uninterrupted, but I will also reiterate that it does not matter - his ability to do so is still amplified by Vaapad transforming him into a superconductor all the same, by which he's able to punch far above his natural potential.
Which brings us back to square one. The power is all Mace's own, and Vaapad is merely a channel for it( something that has been made pretty clear even in the ROTS novel). A force power meant for channelizing your power in an effective manner aside from the lightsaber style, is Vaapad.He takes ownership of Palpatine's power certainly. But he cannot do that without Palpatine, and he can only do it with Vaapad to enhance natural capacity.
So it seems like Mace's Sidious scaling depends on:
1. How well Mace is doing at the beginning of the fight without vaapad (does anyone have that part of the fight with them?)
2. To what extent Mace's power comes from his side of the loop and to what extent Palpatine's
3. Whether Mace "letting loose" is something he can do on command
IMHO point 3 is just Mace trying very hard - of course he's going to be described as going all-out against Sidious, it doesn't really suggest some outlier moment that we can't use in a vs. debate. Point 1 I'm kinda interested in.
Originally posted by Azronger
Also, Mace deflected Sidious' Force Lightning in a non-Vaapad state and didn't instantly die according to the RotS script, although I'm not sure if that's Legends.
Also, reminder that with Vapaad, Mace matched Sidious. If you want to claim that Mace being able to compete with Sidious was due to vapaad, the burden on prof is on you, the one making such a claim, to support your position.
Lucas's statement never mentioned vapaad and Gillard's only possible reference to vapaad talked about how the darkside got you to "nine" not "eight bordering nine."
Add in that Mace lasted a bit deflecting against Sidious's lighting as an amputee , and the notion that Mace can only compete with Sidious due to Vapaad is straight up laughable.
