Originally posted by Beniboybling
But I don't really care what Lucas has to say tbh, and I don't have to in this case, as he says nothing of substance in that statement.
If you want to assert the existence of cirumstance, you have to prove that the circumstance is present.
Originally posted by RockydonovangIt's called the RotS novelisation, I highly recommend reading it, it is a very good book, and goes into great detail into how Mace made use of Vaapad to stalemate Sidious in that confrontation.
Actually you do have to care. Your position relies wholly on the claim that the circumstance of Vapaad explains Mace being able to compete with Sidious. When you make a claim, the burden on proof is on you to prove it, not on others to deny it. If you can't provide evidence that Mace can only compete with Sidious due to Vapaad, then we take the simplest, and hence, best, interpretation of Lucas's claim: Mace can compete with Sidious.
But no, you are asking me to prove a negative. I maintain the following 1. there is no evidence that Windu can compete with Sidious without the use of Vaapad 2. Lucas' statement gives no contexts as to in what way, manner, or circumstance Windu can compete with Sidious, and therefore to assume any of that is speculation, conjecture, and certainly not proof of 1.
And that's pretty obvious when the script, which supersedes all but the movie(which isn't clear on the subject), has amputee Mace deflecting Sidious's lightning.Sorry, are you attempting to suggest here that this:
Is Mace deflecting Palpatine's lightning? What?
Vapaad so far has only been proven to be an explanation for why Mace can match Sidious as a 9. You've yet to prove Mace competing with Sidious or his status as an eight bordering nine is reliant on Vapaad.Once again your arguing from semantics. "Match" and "compete" are not mutually exclusive, if Windu can match Sidious in combat that means he can compete. And I pointed out to you how, according to Gillard, 9 is achieved by tapping into the dark side, which Mace does with Vaapad, I have yet to see you refute this.
If you want to assert the existence of cirumstance, you have to prove that the circumstance is present.The circumstances are provided and expounded upon by the RotS novelisation, it is up to you to prove Windu would somehow perform the same when those circumstances are removed. Please, do not pretend as if Windu being Yoda-tier is something I have to disprove, rather than you proving it in the first place. 👆
Originally posted by The EllimistThe novel doesn't cover that portion of the fight, but we do of course have these:
So it seems like Mace's Sidious scaling depends on:1. How well Mace is doing at the beginning of the fight without vaapad (does anyone have that part of the fight with them?)
Before the Jedi could react, Palpatine sprang into action and killed all of them except Mace Windu.https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/48954/4972642-sidious+vs+council+sw.com.jpg
Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary
In the inner recesses of his private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side flow through him. It granted him unnatural dexterity and speed--enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back.Compare...--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Sidious battles with passion and fury, only to be matched every blow by Yoda's calm, measured skill.For two individuals who are supposed to be near equals, the difference is rather stark. 😐--Star Wars: Beware of the Sith
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's called the RotS novelisation, I highly recommend reading it, it is a very good book, and goes into great detail into how Mace made use of Vaapad to stalemate Sidious in that confrontation.
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But no, you are asking me to prove a negative.
I maintain the following 1. there is no evidence that Windu can compete with Sidious without the use of Vaapad
Is Mace deflecting Palpatine's lightning? What?
You are arguing with strawmen. Match and compete don't have to be mutually exclusive, but that doesn't make them synonymous as your argument is trying to make them out to be.
Once again your arguing from semantics. "Match" and "compete" are not mutually exclusive, if Windu can match Sidious in combat that means he can compete.
And I pointed out to you how, according to Gillard, 9 is achieved by tapping into the dark side, which Mace does with Vaapad, I have yet to see you refute this.
The circumstances are provided and expounded upon by the RotS novelisation, it is up to you to prove Windu would somehow perform the same when those circumstances are removed. Please, do not pretend as if Windu being Yoda-tier is something I have to disprove, rather than you proving it in the first place. 👆 [/B]
I've fufilled my burden of proof, you have yet to fufill yours.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The novel doesn't cover that portion of the fight, but we do of course have these:Compare...
For two individuals who are supposed to be near equals, the difference is rather stark. 😐
Mace reacted to Sidious's ambush yeah, not sure how you're getting "Mace can't react" from that.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with the third quote. Ahsoka forced Maul back on a darkside Nexus. So I guess Ahsoka>>>>Maul?
kbro, Beny is right.
The actually only time Sidious clashed blades with Mace, Vapaad was a crucial part of the Jedi's skillset and, as such, it's part of the circunstances that allowed Windu to match Palpatine.
This doesn't diminish Windu's feat and isn't contradictory to Gilard's and Lucas' assesment of the duo, as it's an integral part of Mace's skillset but if you want to argue Windu can match Sidious without Vapaad, it's you who need to provide evidence.
Originally posted by RockydonovangI am afraid you are becoming a broken record, and to avoid becoming one myself I don't think I'll be continuing this discussion.
Non sequiturYou are trying to counter evidence by claiming the existince of context. That this context exists is a postive and one you have to prove.
I don't have to disprove context you have yet to prove, yeah.
Mace attempted to deflect and was overwhelmed after a few seconds, hence why he wasn't immediately sent flying.
I'll take the script over your interpretations yeah
You are arguing with strawmen. Match and compete don't have to be mutually exclusive, but that doesn't make them synonymous as your argument is trying to make them out to be.Which doesn't remotely address Mace being an "8 bordering 9" without Vapaad.
I've provided you
-> the word of god
-> gillard
-> direct textual evidence
I don't ned to argue aything about circumstances untill you prove that circumstances linked to Mace matching Sidious are required for Mace to compete with sidious.I've fufilled my burden of proof, you have yet to fufill yours.
That said I would like to see that script, because that's f*cking hilarious.
Beni, it seems rather asinine to include amps in statements such as those, given how literally anyone who is bolstered to a high enough level through artificial means could compete with the Emperor, making Lucas' comments defunct.
Lucas says Mace can contend with Sidious. That's incredibly straight-forward. No need to affix hidden contexts to an already self-evident statement.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
As I think you're aware that match and compete are not synonymous terms, I'm going to assume the emoji is intended to represent embarrassment.
You missed the point.
The question is Lucas statement about Mace position in relation to Sidious must take Vaapad into question, as it's an integral part of his ability array. Lucas said Mace can match Sidious and it was proven in the movies. The question is if he could do that without a part of his skillset - Vaapad.
Originally posted by AzrongerAs I already described, Windu's "amp" or rather Vaapad is a unique ability intrinsic to his character, to indeed being Windu.
Beni, it seems rather asinine to include amps in statements such as those, given how literally anyone who is bolstered to a high enough level through artificial means could compete with the Emperor, making Lucas' comments defunct.
Lucas says Mace can contend with Sidious. That's incredibly straight-forward. No need to affix hidden contexts to an already self-evident statement.I agree, Lucas is literally recounting the events of the movie in which Windu (and Yoda) compete with the Emperor, which according to the Legends novelisation was because of Vaapad.
Whereas you are affixing the added contexts of 'anytime, anywhere', which is warranted by nothing. 👆
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I agree, Lucas is literally recounting the events of the movie in which Windu (and Yoda) compete with the Emperor, which according to the Legends novelisation was because of Vaapad.
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