1/18/2018 - #6A (Ranking SIX, Round ONE) - Most Powerful Tournament - VOTE!

Started by Sirion_Of_Doom24 pages
Sirion_Of_Doom Restricted

Originally posted by Azronger
Lucas says Mace can contend with Sidious. That's incredibly straight-forward. No need to affix hidden contexts to an already self-evident statement.

Not really. You're jumping to conclusions. Given that we know from other sources that Mace is closer to Dooku's level than Yoda's (a comparison between feats and accolades will tell you as much), it makes no sense that Yoda would lose and Mace would still be able to compete with him (and even ''overpower'' him). That's why it's perfectly logical to think that it's very situational that Mace can compete with Sheev.

Beni is right folks, as much as it pains me to say it.

Beniboybling Worst Member

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except Lucas doesn't recognize Vaapad, so it's clear he's saying that without any of that nonsense.
Not that's it's relevant (as Vaapad is being acknowledged in this Legends poll) this is wrong, Lucas line-edited the RotS novelisation himself i.e.
What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.

Period.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-official-matthew-woodring-stover-discussion-thread.5816889/page-68#post-25369475

TenebrousWay God Tier Vaylin
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except Lucas doesn't recognize Vaapad, so it's clear he's saying that without any of that nonsense.

In relation to Canon, yes. In terms of Legends, which is what I'm talking about, Vaapad was a crucial technique for Windu to fight on par with Sidious. That's the reason I avoided to make a distinction about Vaapad Mace and non Vaapad Mace: if we apply Lucas statement to Legends, we have a single axiom that Mace can match Sidious - and Vaapad is portrayed as an important aspect for that to happen.

Beniboybling Worst Member

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The first two are obviously hyperbole describing Mace's suprise. We can dismiss any literal interpretation because the movie has Mace reacting to Sidious's first attack by stepping back:
https://youtu.be/q0r4jNhG9Z4?t=1m4s
And then doing nothing as Sidious cut down Tinn and Kolar. I will concede that the sources are inaccurate in relation to Fisto, but the notion that Sidious moved too fast for Windu is clear and iterated by three separate sources.

Mace reacted to Sidious's ambush yeah, not sure how you're getting "Mace can't react" from that.
ambush
ˈambʊʃ/
noun
1.
a surprise attack by people lying in wait in a concealed position.
Sorry, please explain to me how Sidious attacking his opponents head on after just having slowly drawn and ignited his lightsaber can at all be classified as an "ambush". 😂

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with the third quote.
My point was that this never happens to Yoda, and that he was being overpowered until Vaapad kicked in.

Ahsoka forced Maul back on a darkside Nexus. So I guess Ahsoka>>>>Maul?
Correct. 👆

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And then doing nothing as Sidious cut down Tinn and Kolar. I will concede that the sources are inaccurate in relation to Fisto, but the notion that Sidious moved too fast for Windu is clear and iterated by three separate sources.


Yes, because Windu was behind them and hence wasn't in a postion to help. Windu then explicitly reacts to all the attack Sidious dishes out. The quotes can easily be reconciled if you look for the intent rather than try to take them literally(where they are directly contradicted by the movie). Mace just had all his friendste killed. Mace was likely expecting his friends would hold up better, but they did not. This says absolute squat regarding his own combative abilities.

Because
Sorry, please explain to me how Sidious attacking his opponents head on after just having slowly drawn and ignited his lightsaber can at all be classified as an "ambush". 😂

It was clearly an ambush in the novelization which is the only source which has Mace slow to react. After that, Mace is able to react just fine while Fisto is in the game.

I'll concede the movie doesn't potray Sidious's attack as an ambush, but that doesn't really matter as Mace is cleary shown able to react to Sidious's attacks.
[quote]
My point was that this never happens to Yoda, and that he was being overpowered until Vaapad kicked in.


And none of this contradicts anything I've claimed. Yoda was a virtual equal of Sids, Mace, a competitive inferior. How does your evidence prove otherwise?

Correct. 👆

The only part of this debate that really mattered yeah 🙂

The_Tempest Senior Member

Not convinced that Lucas's statement about Mace being able to compete with the Emperor precludes Vaapad. As far as I'm concerned, I've always read Stover's description of Vaapad's importance in that fight as a means of justifying Mace's ability to contend with the Emperor beyond Lucas's word.

I.e. nothing's changed. Mace can compete with Sidious. Vaapad is something that lets him do it. Lucas's probable lack of familiarity with Vaapad doesn't really alter that imo.

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Except that stover's novelization has Mace perfectly matching Sidious, not merely competing with him. Not to mention without Vapaad Mace is an eight bordering nine, and that the script has amputee Mace deflecting Sidious's lightning.

The idea that Mace competing with Sidious is based on vapaad is still wholly baseless.

You can't just add qualifiers to Lucas' statment without proving they apply to his statement.

The_Tempest Senior Member
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Except that stover's novelization has Mace perfectly matching Sidious, not merely competing with him.

To equal someone is also to compete. This doesn't change Lucas's statement.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not to mention without Vapaad Mace is an eight bordering nine,

And Gillard says there's a world of difference between levels, does he not?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
that the script has amputee Mace deflecting Sidious's lightning.

Which is explicitly not in the film. Is the script canon or Legends?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The idea that Mace competing with Sidious is based on vapaad is still wholly baseless.

Not at all, given the fact that that's how he's able to compete with him and why, otherwise, none of his feats or accolades suggest that he can duke it out with Sheev outside Vaapad.

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]To equal someone is also to compete. This doesn't change Lucas's statement.

Yes, but to compete doesn't necessarily mean to equal someone. When you use a word that can mean something else, that changes the meaning of the sentence it's used in.


And Gillard says there's a world of difference between levels, does he not?

IIRC, he says there's a big difference within tiers, that doesn't mean someone bordering on nine can't compete with a nine. (Nine's are all vritual equals)


Which is explicitly not in the film. Is the script canon or Legends?

It's canon. And the film isn't really clear about it. It's obvious he doesn't do as well as Yoda did, but he doesn't really have to, especially given he's an amputee.


Not at all, given the fact that that's how he's able to compete with him and why, otherwise

You've yet to provide proof for this claim.

cs_zoltan Senior Member

Didn't the script say Mace tried to block the lightning but got overwhelmed?

The_Tempest Senior Member
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yes, but to compete doesn't necessarily mean to equal someone. When you use a word that can mean something else, that changes the meaning of the sentence it's used in.

No, but if someone tells me that I'm able to compete with someone and in a subsequent competition I perform as their equal, I have not contradicted the earlier claim. By performing as a person's equal, I have competed with that person by definition.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
IIRC, he says there's a big difference within tiers, that doesn't mean someone bordering on nine can't compete with a nine.

So Mace is an 8 and Sidious is a 9 and there's a big difference between them. Where is it said that Mace is bordering on a 9?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
It's canon. And the film isn't really clear about it. It's obvious he doesn't do as well as Yoda did, but he doesn't really have to, especially given he's an amputee.

The film very obviously doesn't show Mace deflecting the Emperor's lightning. Does any relevant Legends material?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You've yet to provide proof for this claim.

I don't have to prove a negative. You have to prove that Legends Mace is able to go toe-to-toe with the Emperor irrespective of Vaapad if that's your position; you haven't.

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Didn't the script say Mace tried to block the lightning but got overwhelmed?

Yes, he's naturally going to be overwhelmed, as he's inferior and is an amputee at this moment.

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]No, but if someone tells me that I'm able to compete with someone and in a subsequent competition I perform as their equal, I have not contradicted the earlier claim. By performing as a person's equal, I have competed with that person by definition.

I don't need to prove a contradiction here.


So Mace is an 8 and Sidious is a 9 and there's a big difference between them. Where is it said that Mace is bordering on a 9?

Ant should have the quote.

The film very obviously doesn't show Mace deflecting the Emperor's lightning. Does any relevant Legends material?

The script has higher authority than the novelization. Movie based legends is still subservient to canon.

The movie can defintely be interpreted to backup what the script says. Mace doesn't immediately go flying when Sidious hits him with lightning.


I don't have to prove a negative.
"Mace can only compete with Sidious due to Vapaad" is not a negative.
You have to prove that Legends Mace is able to go toe-to-toe with the Emperor irrespective of Vaapad if that's your position; you haven't.

I don't have to disprove a claim, that Vapaad is what allows Mace to compete with Sidious, you've yet to prove.

cs_zoltan Senior Member
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yes, he's naturally going to be overwhelmed, as he's inferior and is an amputee at this moment.

Then he's not deflecting it.

The_Tempest Senior Member
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I don't need to prove a contradiction here.

Sure you do, if your claim that Lucas's "compete" quote should be considered independent of the qualities that enabled Mace to "compete" with Sidious in their one and only fight (Vaapad, shatterpoint, etc.).

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Ant should have the quote.

Cool.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The script has higher authority than the novelization. Movie based legends is still subservient to canon.

According to whom? They're two separate worlds.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
"Mace can only compete with Sidious due to Vapaad" is not a negative.

Ah, for that, I've already told you: Mace has no feats or accolades to his name outside of his Vaapad-infused fight with Sidious to suggest he can fight Sidious without Vaapad. Occam's Razor being what it is: in lieu of evidence to the contrary, Mace can compete with Sidious due to Vaapad.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I don't have to disprove a claim, that Vapaad is what allows Mace to compete with Sidious, you've yet to prove.

You've made the claim that Mace can compete with Sidious without Vaapad and you made it before I got here. You are indeed obligated to prove it.

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Fair enough(to zoltan, not temp).

TenebrousWay God Tier Vaylin
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I don't have to disprove a claim, that Vapaad is what allows Mace to compete with Sidious, you've yet to prove.
FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

How is Legends subservient to Canon?

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sure you do, if your claim that Lucas's "compete" quote should be considered independent of the qualities that enabled Mace to "compete" with Sidious in their one and only fight (Vaapad, shatterpoint, etc.).

No, I'm just taking the text to say what it says, Mace can compete with Sidious. The qualities you're referencing were present in a fight where Mace mathced Sidious. Now you're claiming that "compete" is synonymous with "equal" in this context. That's a claim you need to substantiate. As Lucas never mentions vapaad, I have no need to consider it in my interpretation of Lucas's statement. My interpretation is both the simplest and is uncontradictory, hence it's the best.


According to whom? They're two separate worlds.

The EU is based on the movies and it's been stated that legends writers make their vision align with Lucas's.


Ah, for that, I've already told you: Mace has no feats or accolades to his name outside of his Vaapad-infused fight with Sidious to suggest he can fight Sidious without Vaapad.

Lucas' accolade makes no mention of vapaad. Mace also borders on Sidious's level. Their being a huge difference in tier 8 does not preclude someone very high up in a tier(Mace is as high as possible) from competing with a tier 9. And as tier 9's are all the same, there's not much room for Sidious to be greatly above someone bordering on his level.

Occam's Razor being what it is: in lieu of evidence to the contrary, Mace can compete with Sidious due to Vaapad.

But nowhere is vapaad linked with Mace being able to compete with Sidious. Hence the simplest explanation here is that Mace simply can compete with Sidious.


You've made the claim that Mace can compete with Sidious without Vaapad and you made it before I got here.[/B]

I don't need to prove the "without vapaad" part untill you provide proof of the "with vapaad" part.

The statement is simpler without the context of vapaad init, so occam razor favors my interpretation over yours.

The Ellimist The Shadow

Does anyone have passages of the Mace vs. Sidious duel before Mace really gets into vaapad?