Originally posted by The Ellimist
Does anyone have passages of the Mace vs. Sidious duel before Mace really gets into vaapad?
There is no point where the novel says Mace isn't using Vaapad. The entire time he's supposed to be fighting for his life.
" Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.
More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy,
of justice andpeace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives intheir own ways.
He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.
Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes itsname from a notoriously dangerous predator
native to themoons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikesof its blindingly fast
tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is notuncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest
everkilled had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead:
they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.
Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in
Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to
enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush ofwinning. Vaapad is a path that
leads through the penumbra of the dark side."
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
No, I'm just taking the text to say what it says, Mace can compete with Sidious. The qualities you're referencing were present in a fight where Mace mathced Sidious. Now you're claiming that "compete" is synonymous with "equal" in this context. That's a claim you need to substantiate. As Lucas never mentions vapaad, I have no need to consider it in my interpretation of Lucas's statement. My interpretation is both the simplest and is uncontradictory, hence it's the best.
Not at all. Lucas states Windu can compete with Sidious. Windu goes onto compete with Sidious in the ROTS novel, employing shatterpoint and Vaapad. This would explain how Mace is able to compete with Sidious.
You're claiming Mace could do it without Vaapad and shatterpoint and have offered no proof. You've also offered no proof that Lucas's commentary should be considered distinct from Vaapad and shatterpoint.
The burden of proof, my son, is on you.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The EU is based on the movies and it's been stated that legends writers make their vision align with Lucas's.
Recently, and by recently I mean nearly 4 years ago, the Powers That Be at LucasFilm separated canon from Legends. They are distinct, separate "continuities."
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Lucas' accolade makes no mention of vapaad.
It makes no mention of lightsabers or the Force, either. Maybe he's talking about basketball or foosball. What's your point?
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace also borders on Sidious's level.
According to a quote you've yet to provide.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Their being a huge difference in tier 8 does not preclude someone very high up in a tier(Mace is as high as possible) from competing with a tier 9.
Gillard, you already admitted, states there's a substantial difference between levels. We also don't know if Sidious is a very high tier 9, thus maintaining the sizeable gap.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And as tier 9's are all the same, there's not much room for Sidious to be greatly above someone bordering on his level.
What proof is there that tier 9s are all the same?
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
But nowhere is vapaad linked with Mace being able to compete with Sidious.
If by nowhere you mean "nowhere but the one and only fight they ever had," sure.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Hence the simplest explanation here is that Mace simply can compete with Sidious.
No, the simplest explanation here is that the tools that enabled Mace to compete with Sidious should logically be considered when determining if Mace can compete with Sidious, especially when there has been no evidence offered to indicate he can compete with Sidious without them.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I don't need to prove the "without vapaad" part untill you provide proof of the "with vapaad" part.
You need to prove a claim you've been making from the very beginning, long before our conversation. Prove that Mace can compete with Sidious outside of Vaapad and shatterpoint.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There is no point where the novel says Mace isn't using Vaapad. The entire time he's supposed to be fighting for his life.
" Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.
More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy,
of justice andpeace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives intheir own ways.
He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.
Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes itsname from a notoriously dangerous predator
native to themoons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikesof its blindingly fast
tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is notuncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest
everkilled had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead:
they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.
Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in
Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to
enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush ofwinning. Vaapad is a path that
leads through the penumbra of the dark side."
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yeah, your quote doesn't at all summarize what happens before during the cut away.
In the blank second that followed, while Mace Windu and Kit Fisto could do no more than angle their lightsabers to guard, Palpatine swiftly stepped over the bodies back toward his desk, reversed his blade, and drove it in a swift, surgically precise stab down through his desktop.
"That's enough of that."
^ so this is before the cut, after Palpatine had dispatched of Agen and Tinn. Do we attribute Mace's disadvantage to lack of prep, circumstance, surprise, etc., or to a lack of sinking into vaapad?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Do we attribute Mace's disadvantage to lack of prep, circumstance, surprise, etc., or to a lack of sinking into vaapad?
Mace already knew he was going against someone supremely powerful. Even if Sidious was even more powerful than he thought, it doesn't seem that surprise would be a big factor. Heck, the surprise itself was a product of Sidious' superior speed, so it isn't like Mace was distracted or something else. I'd assume it's Vaapad starting to work.
There's this theforce.net thread that claims Luke was using vaapad in TUF, or at least that Luceno had intended as much, but no link lel.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
There's this theforce.net thread that claims Luke was using vaapad in TUF, or at least that Luceno had intended as much, but no link lel.
I usually take answers from these kind of questions with a very big grain of salt because it feels like a way to steer the author's idea to fit your own.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. Lucas states Windu can compete with Sidious. Windu goes onto compete with Sidious in the ROTS novel, employing shatterpoint and Vaapad. This would explain how Mace is able to compete with Sidious.
I'm claiming Mace can compete, I've provided a statement saying exactly that. I've already met my burden of proof. You're claiming that Mace being able to compete is circumstantial. that is not a negative. That's a positive claim that warrants evidence.
You're claiming Mace could do it without Vaapad and shatter-point
The burden of proof, my son, is on you.
Recently, and by recently I mean nearly 4 years ago, the Powers That Be at LucasFilm separated canon from Legends. They are distinct, separate "continuities."
It makes no mention of lightsabers or the Force, either. Maybe he's talking about basketball or foosball. What's your point?
According to a quote you've yet to provide.
Gillard, you already admitted, states there's a substantial difference between levels. We also don't know if Sidious is a very high tier 9, thus maintaining the sizeable gap.
What proof is there that tier 9s are all the same?
Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.
If by nowhere you mean "nowhere but the one and only fight they ever had," sure.
No, the simplest explanation here is that the tools that enabled Mace to compete
You need to prove a claim you've been making from the very beginning, long before our conversation.
Imma calling it a night for the forum. Imma try to reply later.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
In the blank second that followed, while Mace Windu and Kit Fisto could do no more than angle their lightsabers to guard, Palpatine swiftly stepped over the bodies back toward his desk, reversed his blade, and drove it in a swift, surgically precise stab down through his desktop.
"That's enough of that."^ so this is before the cut, after Palpatine had dispatched of Agen and Tinn. Do we attribute Mace's disadvantage to lack of prep, circumstance, surprise, etc., or to a lack of sinking into vaapad?
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You're claiming that Mace being able to compete is circumstantial.
Vaapad and Shatterpoint are as circunstantial as his arms or his eyes, kbro.
Vapaad is a qualifier you've added to the mix without proof.
Vaapad wasn't added to the mix, it is an integral part of the mix. You, for some reason, think Vaapad is some separate entity from Mace Windu, something like a nexus or something similar and that's why three people are telling you you cannot dissociate Vaapad from Mace in this discussion the same way you cannot dissociate Mace from his arms or legs.
Untill Mace competing with Sidious at all is proven to be a product of Vapaad[...]
It's actually just the circunstance it happened. It's your burden to prove it can happen otherwise.
Occam's Razor dictates we take the simplest interpretation of Lucas' statment: Mace can compete with Sidious.
This is acknowledged by everyone with sane a mind, since it's what actually happened. Sadly for you, it isn't even the subject of what we're talking about.