Superman vs Clayface

Originally posted by SquallX
And you don't think that's just plot induced stupidity (pis)?

I actually hadn't finished posting.
I mistakenly thought no one save for Dark Saint would be posting in reply to this thread today, and so didn't bother to hurry my response. In answer to your questions, direct AND implied however:

Although I found Clayface having strength enough to have launched this truck in the air impressive, and am now
a) wondering if this is Clayface's standard strength level
and
b) wondering how Batman survived him in the past if it was

I don't think that by itself would be enough to fully occupy forum Superman.
Spider-Man, Thing, and even the Rhino, yes, but not necessarily forum Superman.

And I can certainly see where you might consider the apparent bare physical overpowering of Wonder Woman as pis. However, what I'm saying is not that Clayface at THAT level is the forum Superman threat, but Clayface after THIS point:

(Blue's scans cut to avoid image limit)

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This is actually fairly straightforward.

The powers and ability and interpretation of any given character CHANGES when translated from medium to medium, age to age, and writer/artist team to writer/artist team.

The power level for Superboy is different in the televised version of Young Justice (YJ), for instance, than it is in present-day comics. That's largely an illustration of a medium (animated TV) to medium (present-day comicbook) change.

Age to age? Think of whether or not you'd expect Silver Age (ie from the years of roughly 1960 to 1966) Superman to struggle with what you're apparently thinking Superman now here in 2018 (Modern Age/post-Modern Age) Superman will find challenging.

Writer/artist team? Read the Superman versus Venom action penned by Ron Marz in the infamous mid-1990s crossover and tell me why people think Superman would even be a fully adequate match for Spider-Man, let alone the Zods, Thors, Firelords, and Hulks of the world.

For the record, you'd probably have a good matchup if you took Superman from the CW Live Action Supergirl TV show and matched HIM against animated Young Justice Clayface. Present day mainstream comicbook Superman versus present day comicbook Clayface, though?
Not so much.

However, you could also go the route of a scenario match-up.
In point of fact, in at least 2 story lines I know of, even our current comicbook Superman would have found comicbook Clayface a handful. One of the first coming to mind concern's Superman's little cousin, who, during this time, even as on the CW show now, was physically stronger than Clark:

Source: Superman/Batman #19
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Circa: 2006

Despite the mental gymnastics and ignoring you do to justify otherwise, Supergirl was not stronger than Superman. On top of that, Clayface seems to be saying he has real Kryptonite in one of the last few scans you posted. So using a weaker Kryptonian fighting Clayface arguably with Kryptonite proves what?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Back to what I was saying, the 2nd point in time where Clayface would have presented Superman with an interesting challenge was during the Wonder Woman Volume 2, #160-161 arc.

Source: Wonder Woman v2 #160
Circa: 2000

Even ignoring that Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman (even you don't argue in regards to the time frame Clayface facing Diana happened), and has options for dealing with Clayface that Wonder Woman lacks, this example is highly questionable for Clayface against anybody but Wonder Woman. He somehow removed clay from her, gaining powers, in the scene you posted, but left that part out.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-grGL8TSvVEE/VnfnOvmz6kI/AAAAAAAAEys/oab1mE-XgPA/s1600-Ic42/RCO017.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-g_ZSuXGg514/VnfnOgbWPFI/AAAAAAAAEyY/92-zG18Wa8E/s1600-Ic42/RCO018.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8vMU1l2AyAQ/VnfnPY-1X6I/AAAAAAAAEyY/a8LQJSvXEdQ/s1600-Ic42/RCO019.jpg

Even when she was able to somewhat reintegrate herself he had part of her power.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IbGgIstE2AU/VnfnPVRifDI/AAAAAAAAEyY/WpT-PjajwVg/s1600-Ic42/RCO020.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s_n2chYHAvU/VnfnPa8Ys6I/AAAAAAAAEyY/iLeuD__9La4/s1600-Ic42/RCO021.jpg

Just to confirm.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sQMqvjfbSjE/VnfnYiqRvmI/AAAAAAAAE10/2eH2lBLFCwE/s1600-Ic42/RCO006.jpg

So neither example really backs Clayface being a threat under normal circumstances.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I actually hadn't finished posting.
I mistakenly thought no one save for Dark Saint would be posting in reply to this thread today, and so didn't bother to hurry my response. In answer to your questions, direct AND implied however:

Although I found Clayface having strength enough to have launched this truck in the air impressive, and am now
a) wondering if this is Clayface's standard strength level
and
b) wondering how Batman survived him in the past if it was

I don't think that by itself would be enough to fully occupy forum Superman.
Spider-Man, Thing, and even the Rhino, yes, but not necessarily forum Superman.

And I can certainly see where you might consider the apparent bare physical overpowering of Wonder Woman as pis. However, what I'm saying is not that Clayface at THAT level is the forum Superman threat, but Clayface after THIS point:

So you posted again while I was typing my post.

Did you actually read the storyline? Clayface didn't have all of Diana's power(and even a full powered Wonder Woman is<<Superman) and Wonder Woman got her power back by the end. Clayface had her power for all of an issue and a half or so.

Originally posted by Delta1938

neither example really backs Clayface being a threat under normal circumstances

Hey, Delta.

I see you got caught by the same time-posting mechanics as me.
Your post came exactly 1 minute after I'd begun explaining how the magic boost is what makes Clayface in this arc forum-Superman worthy, not Clayface under normal conditions.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hey, Delta.

I see you got caught by the same time-posting mechanics as me.
Your post came exactly 1 minute after I'd begun explaining how the magic boost is what makes Clayface in this arc forum-Superman worthy, not Clayface under normal conditions.

You posted him containing her first, leaving out where he took her powers. That coupled with the Supergirl fight certainly looks like you were arguing Clayface is just that powerful. Why even post the scans of Clayface containing her then later the power stealing?

But even if the OP intended a very specific time for Clayface in a two issue storyline, he didn't have Wonder Woman's full power, who's inferior to Superman anyways without counting things like heat vision or freeze breath. And I predict how you'll reply to freeze breath.

OP is referring to YJ version of Clayface.

Who doesn't have magic/Kryptonite etc.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So you posted again while I was typing my post.

Did you actually read the storyline? Clayface didn't have all of Diana's power(and even a full powered Wonder Woman is<<Superman) and Wonder Woman got her power back by the end. Clayface had her power for all of an issue and a half or so.

1. We might have to agree on posting timetables if this keeps up.
We keep tripping over each other.

2. I actually read the storyline. I'm not sure you did, because Diana comments that Clayface seems more powerful than JUST taking a portion of Diana's power should have made him.
Note Clayface's WW160 flashtrans as Zeus.
The discussion in WW161 expands on what that might mean.

3. Yes, Clayface had his extra power for an issue and a half or so.
That's why I suggested to the original poster of this thread that he make a SCENARIO matchup, and not a standard one.

Also, to go with #3, you are mistaken about Supergirl. Superman in the same situation would not have even GOTTEN to Clayface. Notice as I repost the rest of the answer to this point that Supergirl successfully resisted Poison Ivy's SYNTHETIC kryptonite attack ALONG with whatever radiation Clayface was kicking out. Superman was brought under Ivy's control with Synth-K all by itself.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

For the record, you'd probably have a good matchup if you took Superman from the CW Live Action Supergirl TV show and matched HIM against animated Young Justice Clayface. Present day mainstream comicbook Superman versus present day comicbook Clayface, though?
Not so much.

However, you could also go the route of a scenario match-up.
In point of fact, in at least 2 story lines I know of, even our current comicbook Superman would have found comicbook Clayface a handful. One of the first coming to mind concern's Superman's little cousin, who, during this time, even as on the CW show now, was physically stronger than Clark:

Source: Superman/Batman #19
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Circa: 2006

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I actually hadn't finished posting.
I mistakenly thought no one save for Dark Saint would be posting in reply to this thread today, and so didn't bother to hurry my response. In answer to your questions, direct AND implied however:

Although I found Clayface having strength enough to have launched this truck in the air impressive, and am now
a) wondering if this is Clayface's standard strength level
and
b) wondering how Batman survived him in the past if it was

I don't think that by itself would be enough to fully occupy forum Superman.
Spider-Man, Thing, and even the Rhino, yes, but not necessarily forum Superman.

And I can certainly see where you might consider the apparent bare physical overpowering of Wonder Woman as pis. However, what I'm saying is not that Clayface at THAT level is the forum Superman threat, but Clayface after THIS point:

That whole fight is pis.

Diana has taken hits from Zoom, from an enrage Superman, has blocked a universal shards that were moving at light speed form the scattered God.

Yet Clay face give her trouble?

Don’t get me wrong, I know for story sakes, character can be as strong, or as weak as the author desires. But we as readers, but more specifically in a forum fight sees things differently.

The problem is not Clayface using Thing-level attacks against Wondy.
The problem is that his clay form is able to interact with her clay form and adopt the magic properties of her clay. To essentially replace Wonder Woman as a vessel for her Pantheon's power and then some.

You can post a fight between Superman and a crippled old guy on deathbed and Blue would still argue against Superman.

It's like carver, only more retarded if it is possible.

Might as well show how the rest of this goes ...

Note that Clayface is able to make a convincing impersonation of Superman, even as he did so with Diana in the previous selection:

Wrap up of Pantheon-powered Clayface.
This would make a decent feat for the Donna Troy Respect Thread, assuming we have one:

Source: Wonder Woman v2 #161

Originally posted by Delta1938
You posted him containing her first, leaving out where he took her powers. That coupled with the Supergirl fight certainly looks like you were arguing Clayface is just that powerful. Why even post the scans of Clayface containing her then later the power stealing?

Because that's the order things happened in the story?

Are you saying you would have posted them in reverse?

Again, a pis story that the author had not idea about how to write. Or he knew nothing about Diana.

How does a make since for Clayface to interact and absorbs the Clay? The clay was bless by Skyfather beings. So Clayface, a mere human with chemical induce powers is able to overwrite Zeus’s powers?

Originally posted by SquallX

a mere human with chemical(ly) induce(d) powers is able to overwrite Zeus’s powers?

Do you know the origin of the Flash?

The author of that Clayface story actually may have known a great deal about Wonder Woman.

Clay reversion was a strategy I first remember tried against Wonder Woman by Circe, in a 4 issue story called "War of the gods".

A little later on, John Byrne would explore a similar theme, arguably expanding the scope of the phenomenon:

Source: Wonder Woman v2 #122

Notice that Diana's power waxes and wanes depending on proximity to her Pantheon here. In other stories the amount of prayer they and she receive is the lynchpin. Here, not only Diana but ALL the Amazons find themselves devolving, and that WITHOUT someone like Basil trying to help that process along.

The mechanics we see in this Clayface arc have precedent.

Lamentable how slow these boards are from their heyday a decade or so ago.

Even the people posting these threads don't bother to check on them.

Small wonder posters like DarkSaint have taken to personally requesting member participation.

Incidentally, I think D.S. Is right -- the OP likely is curious to know how we think Young Justice show's Clayface would fare against YJ Superman, in the arguably mistaken belief that the animated show characters are of similar prowess to their paper book counterparts.

I did notice one thing of interest, though ...

From Wikipedia:

In earlier appearances, Basil Karlo had no powers, but wore a clay mask based on one of his movie roles. In recent comics, Basil Karlo's body is made out of mud upon taking the DNA of Clayface III and IV, enabling him to gain the combined powers of both. In The New 52, these are improved to a level in which he can mimic the DNA of others.

" ... can mimic the DNA of others?"

THAT has some interesting implications ...

I don't think I've ever read a full bluewater post to completion. Not even a joke either. Sometimes I catch tidbits like Luciferian and serpents, but I don't think it's ever happened.
Hell of a poster though.

Here's one.

And thank you.

Clayface is incredibly strong and durable in his own right, as seen above, I just think Batman has the right tools to deal with him, and that brute strength is the wrong way to go about killing him.