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Originally posted by ILS
Implying Muur would do any better, lol.
He would, because we have seen more from him in the way of opponents.
Muur>Darth Krayt was shown, Reborn krayt grows in power. So we know he is stronger than he was before. How much stronger, if stronger than Murr, we do not know.
Cade however, was below Darth Krayt, he did grow, but we do not know, how much he had comparatively to Darth Krayt. Unless stated otherwise.
Logically Murr has that high scaling of feats, by being confirmed>Darth Krayt.
If Muur blasting a Krayt who has a lightsaber protruding from his chest shows superiority, then you might as well cut the foreplay and argue Cade > Reborn Krayt.
What we do know is that Celeste Morne combining her power with both Muur's spirit and his talisman, was not in any way shown to be superior to a Krayt who was:
-Due to receive a large power up
-At the very peak of his body-ravaging illness that had plagued him for over a century, which is harder to heal than the most lethal poisons, rakghouls infections or lightsaber wounds
-Had just expended a huge amount of energy frying about ten rakghouls to death, bearing in mind that seven years prior Krayt felt weak after a brief fight with four Imperial Knights.
In fact, Muur's powers of essence transfer and mind domination seemed to be totally ineffective against both Celeste (over the course of a century, I might add) and Cade, who laughed Muur off on two occasions. This pretty heavily indicates that at best, he might share parity with them, but realistically, he's inferior to them and thus has to go to great lengths to manipulate them and weaken their resolve before he can even attempt to take them over.
I'll briefly add that while Cade laughed at Muur's attempts to weaken his resolve, prime Cade's mind was being "infected" and "eaten" by Krayt's unbound spirit, to such an extent he thought it wise to fly into the sun with Krayt's corpse.
Nah, I'm refering more to this quote:
On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt
But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat... or join?Source: Legacy 31: Vector: Part 12 (Publisher's Summary)
I know the second one says might, but the one above it backs the claim.
It confirms, Muur's superiority to Darth Krayt at the time.
So? when he trashed Cade, he was in a similar state, with his illness.
Frying 10 non force sensitive rakghouls to death lmao, that is some nitpicking, I suppose Revan was drained from when he smashed open those durasteel doors before confronting vitiate.
It takes a bit to dominate the mind of people, even Novel vitiate, had to preform some type of ritual, to do such with imperial guardsmen. It is just a clear indication of their willpower. Unless you want to argue Revan>=Vitiate via him and the dread masters unabling to dominate him.
So Reborn krayt>Muur, I do support this. Doesn't take away from anything.
Yeah, Celeste and Muur possessed powers, likely the ability to heal Krayt and summon rakghouls from the dead, which "outshone" them, whatever that means. Krayt was definitely outshone at the time, but not due to a deficiency in power, because as we noted, Krayt was backstabbed. The comic solicitation hyping that Celeste-Muur might be > Krayt is simply that - hype. But what isn't hype is this:
https://i.imgur.com/wzYaVal.jpg
This is on the same page as your own Insider quote, btw, so I'm not sure how you can possibly reconcile that Muur is > Krayt, when Krayt's TK and lightning skills "far outstrip any Sith of his era."
Krayt trashed Cade after being fully healed and experiencing a power increase. When he was vong-afflicted him and Cade had a long, hard fight.
Dude, Krayt is having his insides constantly torn up and fed upon by vong organisms, and his flagging stamina is constantly brought up. You ignoring that very important fact does not serve your case. Like I said before, even killing four Imperial Knights left Krayt out of stamina, the circumstances in Vector are far worse due to his illness progressing and him expending even more energy.
Essence Transfer is a battle which is based on willpower as well as Force power, which is stated repeatedly during the Vector arc and in other material. Zannah fighting off Bane's essence transfer was proof she was fit to succeed him. The battle of wills between Wyyrlok and Andeddu was another representation of this. So again, the fact that Muur couldn't undermine the willpower of Celeste Morne despite sharing a mind with her for over a century is extremely telling.
Not sure that either gets a decisive edge over the other.
ILS makes some good points. But i'm still not convinced Cade has this based of them. It's all very convincing to a degree, but there are some minor details that have a much greater impact unless overlooked.
The first is that Spirit Muur /= Living Muur. His ability to affect the living realm with his powers in this state is hindered, which includes the ability to possess/dominate the minds of others. So using spirit!Murr's limitations as a point of reference to cap living Murr's powers, doesn't work. When the difference may well be some order of magnitude. And I'm not talking about a Nick Gillard's exaggerated order of magnitude, I'm talking about going from crushing AT AT's to barely being able catch R2 D2's attention with Telekinesis. Which serves a massive contention to some of the points made.
In fact, Muur's powers of essence transfer and mind domination seemed to be totally ineffective against both Celeste (over the course of a century, I might add) and Cade, who laughed Muur off on two occasions. This pretty heavily indicates that at best, he might share parity with them, but realistically, he's inferior to them
Which suffers form the rebuttal above with regards to Muur's status as a spirit. What's more, the inability to possess either of these two with essence transfer doesn't reliably indicate inferiority to Cade or Celeste. Ironically, the example provided relating to Zannah and Bane, demonstrates the opposite.
Essence Transfer is a battle which is based on willpower as well as Force power, which is stated repeatedly during the Vector arc and in other material. Zannah fighting off Bane's essence transfer was proof she was fit to succeed him.
Zannah may have been fit to succeed him. But without the soil of Ambria and expertise in a field of abilties that Bane was shy in (sorcery) her powers were not yet up to scratch with Bane's own - he was winning the fight prior to these circumstances. This indicates that possessing someones mind and body requires much greater than a paltry degree of superiority to the victim. And of course, Bane is able to draw from the full power his corporeal body offers him (the ritual destroyed his body completely). Muur doesn't have such an advantage and probably suffers because of it.
Krayt trashed Cade after being fully healed and experiencing a power increase. When he was vong-afflicted him and Cade had a long, hard fight.
I'm not contesting that Krayt is more powerful than his Vong iteration, but even in all the splendour his reborn body offers him, there was no trashing. In fact, one can argue that Krayt failed to dominate Cade in conventional aspects of the force (such as Telekinesis and mind powers) but managed to exploit a lapse in defence with Dark Transfer. Even after weakening Cade to a great extent with said power, he was still unable to possess him. One could even say that that his inability to undermine Cade's will despite having the advantage, is rather telling.
This is on the same page as your own Insider quote, btw, so I'm not sure how you can possibly reconcile that Muur is > Krayt, when Krayt's TK and lightning skills "far outstrip any Sith of his era.
The tyranny of the Star Wars accolade strikes again. A trump card to most. But let's give the quote a simple degree of analysis to demonstrate why it may not incapsulate Muur. Read - Krayt is more powerful than any sith of his era. Think about why Muur may technically avoid inclusion as a sith of a completely different era. And after that we still have the quote claiming Murr had powers that outshone his. You claim that may be referring to non combative abilties such as healing, but if Muur is his superior in the field Krayt dedicated much of his life to studying, than it may suggest he's better in others.
Also, I seriously doubt this text is referring to healing powers or summoning rackgouls(spelling), but rather the bolded.
On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt
Those of you that have a rigid flexibility towards accolades should have no trouble bowing before the quote above, which clearly has Muur > Cade.
Originally posted by JMANGOI'll do my best to reconcile these issues, Jman.
Not sure that either gets a decisive edge over the other.ILS makes some good points. But i'm still not convinced Cade has this based of them. It's all very convincing to a degree, but there are some minor details that have a much greater impact unless overlooked.
The first is that Spirit Muur /= Living Muur. His ability to affect the living realm with his powers in this state is hindered,Fully agreed, which is why it's wonderful that he can directly channel his power through Celeste's body, in addition to her own power. It's like 2 for the price of 1.
which includes the ability to possess/dominate the minds of others.Honestly, your point regarding Bane using his body as fuel for the ritual was overlooked on my end. Fair point. However I do still have another point of contention here.
So using spirit!Murr's limitations as a point of reference to cap living Murr's powers, doesn't work.The core point being, though, that you're saying Muur + his amulet, is more powerful than Muur's spirit + his amulet + an already considerably powerful Force user such as Celeste Morne. I don't see much proof for this, one way or another, but I figure a spirit + a living Force user probably beats out just one Force user, unless you can demonstrate that Muur in his own body is superior.
When the difference may well be some order of magnitude. And I'm not talking about a Nick Gillard's exaggerated order of magnitude, I'm talking about going from crushing AT AT's to barely being able catch R2 D2's attention with Telekinesis. Which serves a massive contention to some of the points made.That clearly isn't the level of power Muur offers here, though.
Which suffers form the rebuttal above with regards to Muur's status as a spirit. What's more, the inability to possess either of these two with essence transfer doesn't reliably indicate inferiority to Cade or Celeste. Ironically, the example provided relating to Zannah and Bane, demonstrates the opposite.Bane also noted that the only way to counter sorcery is through sheer willpower, so while there are clear stylistic differences between the two which lend each advantages in different ways (Bane with melee combat, Zannah with sorcery), suggesting Bane is more powerful than her overall seems wrong. Not that this is germane to the discussion any more.Zannah may have been fit to succeed him. But without the soil of Ambria and expertise in a field of abilties that Bane was shy in (sorcery) her powers were not yet up to scratch with Bane's own - he was winning the fight prior to these circumstances.
However, what I would say indicates inferiority, or at least parity, is that Muur had a century to spend sharing a mind with Celeste Morne. Over 100 years to weaken her resolve, attack her mind, tempt her, undermine her in every way possible.
In stark contrast, Muur was able to tempt Shado Vao with telepathy to such an extent Shado left his room in the middle of the night to come and see the amulet, after seeing a vision of him trying it on for size. Cade laughed off Muur's influence even when wearing the talisman.
Even more telling, immediately after Krayt died, without needing to be attached to Cade with a talisman or being tethered to any power source, he entered his mind unwillingly, taunting him, "infecting" and "eating" his mind, leaving Cade so unsure of his control over his own body that he opted to fly himself and Krayt's corpse into the sun.
Not only does that show laughable superiority to Muur on Krayt's part, but it shows that Muur is clearly in Celeste's relative power range if he failed to accomplish half as much over the course of 100 years.
This indicates that possessing someones mind and body requires much greater than a paltry degree of superiority to the victim.It requires one to battle the opponent on the level of mind/essence/consciousness, all of which are intertwined and mostly indistinguishable. From there, the possessor tries to obliterate the identity or otherwise mind of the defender, and the defender simply shields their own mind and tries to cast their attacker into the void. It's a simple, honest battle for superiority from what I can tell. You will recall that the spirit of Andeddu was obliterated in a similar battle of wills on the telepathic plane versus Wyyrlok.
I'm not contesting that Krayt is more powerful than his Vong iteration, but even in all the splendour his reborn body offers him, there was no trashing.I hope you realise I was simply using hasch's own terminology for the sake of brevity. I wouldn't quite describe the duel that way either, however...
In fact, one can argue that Krayt failed to dominate Cade in conventional aspects of the force (such as Telekinesis and mind powers) but managed to exploit a lapse in defence with Dark Transfer.Well no, he lifted Cade off of his feet immediately and threw him into a wall, and then seemingly continued to manipulate him after. If it was meant to be a hard fight, it'd have been portrayed similarly to his first fight with Cade, his lengthy fight with Wyyrlok, or many of the other long, arduous fights depicted in Legacy. Instead, Krayt is shown fighting him for less than a page and a half. And a "momentary lapse in defence" is something Cade failed to exploit in their first fight, despite understanding thoroughly how exposed Krayt's condition was to Dark Transfer. Cade couldn't lay a glove on him then, and he appears far less able to the second time around.
Even after weakening Cade to a great extent with said power, he was still unable to possess him. One could even say that that his inability to undermine Cade's will despite having the advantage, is rather telling.He had a far better time of it than Muur anyway. Cade seems to be convinced Krayt will take him over, because he is "eating" and "infecting" his mind - which is part of the identity being destroyed, as we discussed earlier - hence why he wants to fly both of them into the sun.
In stark contrast, Muur fails to provide a similar level of threat to Celeste's mind over the course of a hundred years, or Cade while he's wearing his spirit as an accessory and sharing a mind with him.
The tyranny of the Star Wars accolade strikes again. A trump card to most.Indeed, it's nice to have such weapons in your backpocket.
But let's give the quote a simple degree of analysis to demonstrate why it may not incapsulate Muur. Read - Krayt is more powerful than any sith of his era. Think about why Muur may technically avoid inclusion as a sith of a completely different era.Krayt's era is the Legacy era, which is written on the first page of any Legacy comic, and Muur exists during this era. So yes, this incapsulates Muur insofar as he appeared in the Legacy comics.
And after that we still have the quote claiming Murr had powers that outshone his. You claim that may be referring to non combative abilties such as healing, but if Muur is his superior in the field Krayt dedicated much of his life to studying, than it may suggest he's better in others.Pretty ridiculous supposition overall. The only ways in which Muur outshone Krayt and Cade were in his ability to heal Krayt, his ability to summon rakghouls, and when he "outshone" a Krayt who had just been stabbed in the chest.
Your logic clearly doesn't make sense, because Krayt learns how to heal himself during the fight. As soon as Muur starts healing him he "understands," which is precisely why he defies death shortly after. Yet, his cognisance of this new healing technique does not elevate his power in of itself, so why you think it'd elevate Muur over him is beyond me.
Also, I seriously doubt this text is referring to healing powers or summoning rackgouls(spelling), but rather the bolded.Your two options are as follows:
1. The "powers" Muur possesses which outshine them are those Krayt and Cade are lacking or less capable in, e.g healing and summoning.
2. Muur "outshone" Krayt by blasting him off the edge, and in the process he very much put on a more grand display than Cade, which would qualify as "outshining" him without strictly needing to be superior.
I much prefer to simply look at what is happening in the material and draw my conclusions from that, but if you're going to try and force the most preferable definition of your own cherry picked quote, I am going to do the same with mine, only that mine is pretty clear cut.
Krayt "far outstripping" any other Sith of his time with regards to TK and lightning can only be the result of his superiority as a Force practitioner. Unless you have an alternative hypothesis for why he'd be simultaneously weaker than Muur but far better than him with regards to fundamental combat powers.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLightNo need to go into such semantics when we have a very clear definition of which era Krayt and Muur exist in during the fight.
Krayt himself is not of the Legacy era if we want to go into forced semantics here. Another self defeating argument.
The quote directly states that Muur "possessed powers that outshone them both" in regards to Krayt and Cade. Furthermore he's obviously exempt from ILS's quote since he's not of the Legacy era, as well as the fight itself clearly demonstrating that Krayt does not "far outstrip" him in anything.
Muur takes this fairly easily.
Originally posted by NephthysHe did. He was the only one in possession of healing powers that Krayt coveted, and he outshone both Krayt and Cade when he blasted a lightsaber-impaled Krayt.
The quote directly states that Muur "possessed powers that outshone them both" in regards to Krayt and Cade.
Furthermore he's obviously exempt from ILS's quote since he's not of the Legacy era,Considering he exists during the Legacy era, sounds kind of silly.
as well as the fight itself clear demonstrating that Krayt does not "far outstrip" him in anything.Not really. Krayt proves a clear superior to Celeste on her own, and the only times Krayt battles Muur and Celeste proper are so brief we cannot conclude anything substantial. Moreover, it was not only Muur fighting, but Muur and Celeste's joined power versus Krayt.
Muur takes this fairly easily.Lol.
Originally posted by ILS
No need to go into such semantics when we have a very clear definition of which era Krayt and Muur exist in during the fight.
What I was saying was that Krayt was present during the empire era as well so you know, the idea that because Muur was born millennia ago somehow exempts him from the quote is clearly BS when Krayt himself is a person who wasn't born in the Legacy time.
So, it is practically a self defeating argument.
