Karness Muur vs. Cade Skywalker

Cade:
Geistalt
ILS
LordOfTheLight
deathslash

I mean, he did kill Muur already thanks to Shatterpoint. Even if he is still weaker by the end of Legacy.

Muur:
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Haschwalth
Jmanghan
Nephthys

Originally posted by JMANGO
No that's not what I'm saying. In fact, I haven't yet made the comparison between Murr parading in Celeste's body and Murr as he existed in the flesh.

My point was that Spirit Muur - independent of any other force user as a conduit - would be substantially weaker than Murr with his own functioning body.

I'm glad you agree. You support the idea that Spirit Murr is weaker than his living self. Why is this relevant? Well, let's have a look at what you're saying.

That Muur's failure to dominate either two with Essence Transfer demonstrates his inferiority to them. Which is irrelevant given that :

1) He's a spirit

2) He's can't channel powers through them while attempting to invade them

3) It's probably not even a direct example of superiority/inferiority et all

You're core point here is that Cade and Celeste were able to resist Spirit Muur's attempts to control their bodies against their own will... which is irrelevant to the thread, given the iterations being discussed and the method of measuring them. So my actual point stands. That using spirit Murr's demonstrations of power does not give us a reliable indication to Cap living Muur... as you previously agreed.

It's more like this :

Muur's Spirit + Muur's physical body + Muur's talisman

vs

Muur's Spirit + Celeste Morne's body + (her spirit) + Muur's talisman

The constant variables (the spirit and talisman) in this equation cancel each other out

You're forgetting that Morne's body is not an empty vessel, but is commanded by her own spirit. If we agree that the body and the spirit both bring power to the equation, then Morne's body is being amplified by two spirits. A potent example of this is when SWTOR's Darth Nox binds six Sith spirits to his body and draws on their power to amplify his own. Now, of course there are select moments where Morne chooses not to draw on Muur's power, or only uses some of it, but my position is just that if she was in unison with Muur's spirit, as we see right at the end of the fight with Krayt, that's how I think the equation would look.

And if you agree with me on how those mechanics play out, then my question to you becomes, which equation is stronger? Equation A (normal, living Muur) or Equation B (full bodied Morne and Muur's spirit in unison, as we see in Legacy).

I understand if you're not sure who is better, because neither am I, but I do find it more likely that Muur's physical body makes up the difference of both Morne's own body and spirit, with Muur's spirit-talisman being the common variable.

Basically, Celeste Morne > Muur's uninhabited body. Does that seem reasonable?

meaning we're left down to wether Celeste's body has more natural potential to use the Force than Muur's own
Which isn't something either of us know.

What we do know, however, is that Murr actively contends with Celeste for control over her body. As you put it, "a battle of wills" is commencing in this scenario. Meaning that if Muur is spending an inordinate amount of will power in keeping Morne at bay, it detracts from the powers he uses offensively.

Given this circumstance, yes, we have reason to assume Muur is more powerful in his own corporeal body, where he isn't contending with another party for control of it.

It seems like a purely profitable relationship for Morne power-wise, providing she chooses to partake, rather than two stifled minds fighting each other for control. That certainly doesn't appear to be the case when they're speaking in unison with each other at the end.

*regarding Bane > Zannah, and spirit Muur*

Then for debates sake, i ask that you don't pull similar stunts in regards to language. Because the only reason I addressed the Reborn Krayt vs Cade segment was because i found the term "trashing" misleading regarding their battle.

The idea that Spirit!Krayt would eventually invade Cade's Mind after his death was based on false pretences. This is evidenced by the fact that 1) it didn't happen. 2) that Living!Krayt had demoralised Cade with a doom and gloom vision depicting courescant as an ash tray, with Cade, fully possessed by Krayt, as the perpetrator.

It doesn't show any superiority to Muur on Krayt's part. Both of their attempts to possess Cade failed. Both Sith Spirits were vanquished. Muur because the object that tethered his spirit was destroyed. Krayt because he had nothing to tether his spirit to.

Cade, ez

That's why post-mortem Muur existed for a little longer than the comic equivalent of a few pages, and why Krayt did not.

You can argue that Krayt made a little more leeway in undermining Cade's resolve

https://imgur.com/a/fN2Cb

Compare that to a Cade who has gone through numerous trials, become more "focused", bathed himself in the light side when saving the love of his life, and acquired a "newfound mastery of the Force." Then compare the effect Krayt has on him, as a spirit tethered to nothing but his own corpse, rather than one of the most powerful Force-imbued artifacts ever made.

Regardless of how successful Krayt would have been in possessing Cade, he was in far less an advantageous position to do so than Muur, and got much further toward that objective, despite Cade being more head-strong and powerful than ever.

convincing him that suicide would be the safest bet to prevent his possession, but that's only because of the vision Cade had while the former was still breathing - a dying courescant at the hands of an evil Cade.

And of course, after Skywalker dumped the Sith's body into the Sun, Krayt couldn't even reach him. The only time Krayt makes any genuine progress into "destroying Cade's identity" is during their battle, which still ultimately resulted in failure,

to which you have to say this:
[...]
That's because your comparing flesh and bone Reborn Krayt to Spirit Murr. A comparison I wouldn't dream of making.

What's worse is that you've made this argument - that a failure to dominate ones mind shows realistic inferiority to the victim. Which would then mean that Cade > Reborn Krayt. I guess that means Krayt's use of dark transfer and against Cade was... a statistical uncertainty?

And I'm not sure why you're trying return to the topic of Krayt and Cade's duel, when you opted to ignore an entire rebuttal I made to one of your arguments on that point. I mean, I guess you really enjoy undermining Krayt's victory there, as you do with Caedus, providing it ends up servicing your wankery of Kun and co., but how about instead of posting gifs and ignoring arguments you just address the point?

Except the quote doesn't say he's stronger than sith existing during this era. It says he's stronger than sith of Krayt's era Now there's simple question to conclude this premise. Is Karness Muur a Sith of Darth Krayt's era? The answer is no. A 19th century Flintlock Pistol doesn't become a firearm of modern times because one can be purchased on eBay. I hope I don't have to elaborate on this point again, given that you've already made an omission.

In this case, Krayt is the AK-47, and Muur's spirit is the 19th century flintlock. I hope you understand the difference.

So even if the quote incapsulates Muur (it doesn't) it's referring to him as a Sith Spirit, who has most likely, close to zero capabilities with TK and Lighting on his own.

The point was that if Muur has the better resources in the field Krayt dedicated his life to studying, he probably has greater depth of knowledge relating to combat too;

a more potent variant of drain, better sorcery etc.

Powers that can be used in a vs thread that the opponent may not even be able to counter.

This is likely due to the amounts of sith knowledge that is destroyed or lost overtime.

*** fixed

I understand if you're not sure who is better, because neither am I, but I do find it more likely that Muur's physical body *does not* make up the difference of both Morne's own body and spirit, with Muur's spirit-talisman being the common variable.

Originally posted by ILS
Yeah, I jumped the gun, you have my most sincere apologies, Zigmeister.

Agreed.

👆

I can't say for certain it proves he's inferior.

Well that's where our convictions differ. Because I'm almost certain that Muur's failed attempts to transfer his essence into Cade or Celest Morne do not prove he's inferior to them. This isn't just due to the lack of proof for such a claim, but also because the possible implications that it has on the Star Wars universe. For example, do you not think there's a reason why :

1) Palpatine, as of Dark Empire, opted to transfer his essence into clones of himself

2) When the clones were destroyed, Sidious' next target was the unborn Anakin solo

3) He never considered possessing Leia or Luke in a venerable moment

Think about that for a moment, and maybe you'll begin to understand just how hard it is to use this technique against someone who is not only strong in the force, but also unwilling to bend over and allow a sith spirit to erode their conciseness while parading their skin.

Where our wires have crossed is that while I don't think a spirit > the full body, I didn't interpret battles of the mind and spirit as affairs that factor in the body.

Well Bane would certainly disagree. Given that a battle of the mind and spirit took every fibre of his being to fuel, leaving his body completely disintegrated. So I'll continue with this line of thought - pretty much any battle involving the force, will be decided by one's capability to use the force. So I don't see why there's problem in agreeing that Muur is at a disadvantage when lacking a proper vessel to use his powers, especially when you're fully agreed that he's weaker as a spirit. I'll say it again. All sith spirits will be weaker than their living selves in of any field of power. Including the mind. Lesser sith spirits aren't even able to possess/influence non force sensitives. To reiterate, Just because a battle "of the mind" is commencing, one's connection to the force doesn't become irrelevant, otherwise non force users would have an even shot at competing in this field. Case in point, Celest Morne can't be compared to Muur, when the she is capable of channeling her full power against his hindered spirit. The comparison will always be lopsided in her favour.

Yeah, until I have further clarity on the exact mechanics of spirits trying to possess beings, I'll concede the point.

Good stuff. Now I'm glad I could convince you of this with my own dialect. But as it happens, everything I've said is backed up by a very clear, cut and dry piece of evidence. Something that I've decided to keep sheathed in case you needed a little extra push of convincing:

- Taken from the Dark Empire source book

Palatine had already dominated Luke's mind in the flesh (something Krayt failed to do against Cade mind) but clearly attempting to possess his body as a spirit is something much much harder. So when we look again at Muur's relationship with Morne, it becomes clear that a centuries worth of prying and undermining is more a testament to the nigh impossibility of what he was attempting. Rather than something that reflects badly on him.

You're forgetting that Morne's body is not an empty vessel, but is commanded by her own spirit. If we agree that the body and the spirit both bring power to the equation, then Morne's body is being amplified by two spirits.

I'm not forgetting Morne's spirit at all. As it's antithetical to the general equation of power. Their relationship is represented as two conscious identities competing for control over one vessel. The articles on essence transfer back this up, with the user having to overcome the host spirit or overwrite their conciseness. That's why Morne proclaims she's been fighting Muur for control of her body for over a century. Her spirit is at the very best absent from the equitation, but it's most likely the competing factor. This is especially represented in the fight with Krayt with Morne actively suppressing him. And I seriously doubt that the format of the speech bubble represents their union, but more than likely it represents her struggle against him, given that this was her conviction two pages prior :

A potent example of this is when SWTOR's Darth Nox binds six Sith spirits to his body and draws on their power to amplify his own.

"I have a good idea ! Let's take the well established and long standing mechanics from one power, and change it so it's fits with this completely unrelated power exhibited by Darth Nox"... No. That doesn't work, there's plenty of material on the subject that could have expanded to include a spirit drain mechanic as part of essence transfer. But it doesn't. And just because one power operates in the realm of the spirit, does not mean it's functionally is identical to another. That would be the same as expecting Kenobi's Soresu to emulate the siphoning ability of Vappad because both techniques require lightsabers.

Fair points, but it also doesn't preclude the possibility that Cade would have been taken over, either. I have a feeling that, with Krayt forcing words into his head and "eating" his mind - which lines up with the description of ET being the destruction of the host's identity

There is virtually no possibility that Cade would have been taken over. The idea is based entirely on false pretences, which is illustrated very nicely in the scene. Cade was obviously ignorant that even the slightest attempt to rebuke Krayt's efforts would banish the Sith Spirit forever. This is of course, is exactly what happens he decides not to an hero. Ultimately, the only reason Krayt's spirit had the most minute of chances was because of a vision Cade experienced depicting the doom of Courescant with himself a possessed dark sider. He relays this information to Luke, while the latter is attempting talk some sense into him. Krayt is playing off this fear which allows him to "infect" his mind withe the (false) possibility of possession. For Krayt It's a feat that relies purely on the circumstances of the situation, rather then an accurate representation of his power against others.

Cade likely has a better idea of the situation than me or you. In which case, I'm gonna take him on his word that Krayt possessing him was a serious possibility.

Well you're wrong, given that Cade doesn't have access to various source books or Darth Sidious himself telling him that :

1) possession of a host is nearly impossible if the target is unwilling

2) the disastrous implications that a failed essence transfer has

3) that even though Cade can't physically harm Krayt's essence, the latter has no way of sustaining himself

4) The moment Cade rejects the idea of being possessed, Krayt is gone forever.

And as mentioned before, Krayt couldn't even destroy Cade's identity at his full power, which is no where near as difficult compared to invading his body as a spirit. This pretty much solidifies the idea that Cade was simply spooked by the vision he saw, and is operating on the false pretence that his possession at the hands of Krayt is inevitable. This fear is the only thing that allows Krayt's spirit to exist, and when it vanishes, so does he:

But let's just look at this hilarious appeal to false authority for a moment and think about the implications. A lesson in disregarding Character fallibility that ends this thread; Karness Muur has easily defeated Sith lords more powerful than Krayt. The fallibility of this statement is thrown out because Muur "has a better idea of the situation than you or I"

And I'm not sure why you're trying return to the topic of Krayt and Cade's duel, when you opted to ignore an entire rebuttal I made to one of your arguments on that point.

I Ignored those points because I was addressing the idea that Krayt was a league ahead Cade and can dominate him at a whim, a stance which you amended. But let's re visit those points.

1) Krayt failed to dominate Cade with TK
2) Krayt failed to subdue him with lightning
3) The lightsaber duel was inconclusive
4) Krayt failed to subdue Cade's mind and was stabbedd after the attempt

I still think that Reborn Krayt > Cade, but that their duel ultimately came down to Krayt's element of surprise in using an attack Cade never expected. And his ability to place his hand on Cade. A result that can easily be explained by statistical uncertainty.

I mean, I guess you really enjoy undermining Krayt's victory there

And I guess you really enjoy feasting on Krayt's Vong infested nut sack.

as you do with Caedus

This can be saved for another thread.

providing it ends up servicing your wankery of Kun and co

The difference is that when I wank Kun, it's based of accurate metrics in which he can be compared to others. For example, I see Kun maintain a force stun over a million+ people while beating the renowned Jedi weapon master in the era of weapon masters. And i say that if Maul had that level of power and skill, he wouldn't be running from a group of pirates. Ultimately these premises don't end up with me making a host of memeworthy logical blunders, for example : Muur's Essence Transfer is the same as Nox's ghost binding. Or that a 19th century flintlock pistol is a firearm of the same era as an AK 47.

The flaw with your argument is that while a 19th century flintlock pistol is a firearm of the 19th century

if one were to say "the AK-47 is the most powerful firearm of it's era," it'd be making a comparison to all other firearms existing during that era. Just because a firearm was made in a prior era, that it exists in the current one means it is fit to be compared to.

What if one where to say the AK-47 is the weakest firearm of it's era?would the comparison realistically include firearms of the 19th century? No because flintlock pistol is not of the same era as the AK47. Just like Muur is not of Krayt's era. r,

No, Muur having better knowledge of the healing arts does not mean he has greater knowledge of other arts.

It does suggest as much. It's not guaranteed, but likely. The fact is that Krayt had a very long life to seek out answers regarding a field of abilties that was of paramount importance to him. Muur's showing better expertise in that particular tenant of the force, is a testament to his knowledge of force powers. And probably a testament to the wealth of knowledge his kind had access to that was subsequently lost over time. Either that or he's just more powerful.

I'll point out that Nox's body couldn't actually handle the ghosts power and it was destroying her and going out of control.

No need to derail the thread Nephtits

It massively aids your argument though. Because Nox vs. 5 Sith spirits was still a mental battle that Nox was stalemating in. They couldn't overwhelm the host. Valkorion couldn't even permanently destroy the Outlander's psyche, yet he's effortlessly dominating both of the spirits of Arcann and Vaylin. The host has the most control, hence Outlander literally forcing weaknesses upon Valk's spirit where they'd never existed before.

There's countless other examples, let alone spirit Kun's less than dominant interactions with Gantoris, Streen and a bunch of others who are utter plebs in comparison when it came to battle of wills.

Well I tried to help. :I

Originally posted by AncientPower
https://youtu.be/Vdd4rBlsj2o?t=36