Originally posted by ILS
Thanks for proving my point?Morne was rapidly losing against that duo, and then Krayt appeared to back off and began talking her down.
https://i.imgur.com/m6zS5bG.jpg
Like, seeing as you place so much stock in Muur's dialogue, you might have been honest enough to point out that even Muur states Krayt > Celeste. But you weren't. 😬
I didn't? Muur was easily handling and absorbing Krayts lightning.
It doesn't make sense than Krayt would allow the fight to continue instead of subduing or capturing her.
Why would I mention that? This is Muur's thread, not Morne's. I only mentioned her to point that that in the specific area your quote is referring to, even she could block him and Maladi at once.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
So, how was there a decisive victor in that fight?
Spirit Muur is stronger than Cade. In his own body with his full power, he'd be even greater.
Originally posted by NephthysMuur shittalking while firing lightning at Krayt for two comic panels is not compelling evidence of... anything. Celeste is clearly not handling anything easily here.
I didn't? Muur was easily handling and absorbing Krayts lightning.It doesn't make sense than Krayt would allow the fight to continue instead of subduing or capturing her.
Why would I mention that? This is Muur's thread, not Morne's. I only mentioned her to point that that in the specific area your quote is referring to, even she could block him and Maladi at once.
And for proof they are both firing lightning rather than Muur simply absorbing Krayt's:
Morne using tutaminis on Maladi's lightning:
Muur using lightning on Krayt:
Krayt was going to defeat her with lightning, but then ended up bladelocking her and trying to draw her towards the dark side. Considering the litany of errors you've already made, I'm not sure why anyone would care about what makes sense to you.
And what exactly does Morne blocking Krayt and Maladi briefly prove? I'll answer for you: that she was about to lose. That's not a feat in excess of Cade.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Even Morne and Muur combined did nothing to Krayt till he was stabbed through the gut with a lightsaber. You know, the kind of injuries that would kill most force users on the spot.Your logic is like saying Obi Wan "curbstomped" Maul because he cut him down faster than Maul could even react.
Where?
Proof that Muur was drawing on Mornes power?
"On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below."
Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt
It specifically says that Muur's own power outshone Cade's. Mornes power isn't something Muur himself possesses, so it isn't relevant to the quote.
Originally posted by NephthysIn this context, all of Karness Muur's power was being channelled through Celeste Morne's body, which includes her own power. She, combined with Muur, is the Force user who outshone them. The powers they possessed that outshone were healing and rakghouls, and the only time they were outshone combat-wise was when a backstabbed Krayt got thrown away.
Proof that Muur was drawing on Mornes power?"On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below."
Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt
It specifically says that Muur's own power outshone Cade's. Mornes power isn't something Muur himself possesses, so it isn't relevant to the quote.
This just isn't rocket science, Neph.
Originally posted by ILS
Muur shittalking while firing lightning at Krayt for two comic panels is not compelling evidence of... anything. Celeste is clearly not handling anything easily here.And for proof they are both firing lightning rather than Muur simply absorbing Krayt's:
Morne using tutaminis on Maladi's lightning:
Muur using lightning on Krayt:
Krayt was going to defeat her with lightning, but then ended up bladelocking her and trying to draw her towards the dark side. Considering the litany of errors you've already made, I'm not sure why anyone would care about what makes sense to you.
And what exactly does Morne blocking Krayt and Maladi briefly prove? I'll answer for you: that she was about to lose. That's not a feat in excess of Cade.
Did you... miss the line "I feed on your power and make it my own"? Muur was absorbing Krayts lightning. Morne was previously blocking Maladi's lightning with a different technique. Not entirely sure how that could be any more obvious.
That he was going to defeat her with it is merely your assumption. The fact is that last we see of the situation she was successfully blocking them both. For whatever reason he stopped, you don't know why. In the circumstances the were in it would clearly be better to just end the fight instead of risking Skywalker coming over to help or Muur gaining control, which is exactly what ends up happening. If he could end the fight but decided to try and turn her instead then he'd be a colossal moron.
It just indicates that his ability in this area is hardly overwhelming. I only mentioned it as an extra note in the first place, lol.
Originally posted by ILS
In this context, all of Karness Muur's power was being channelled through Celeste Morne's body, which includes her own power. She, combined with Muur, is the Force user who outshone them. The powers they possessed that outshone were healing and rakghouls, and the only time they were outshone combat-wise was when a backstabbed Krayt got thrown away.This just isn't rocket science, Neph.
It says "a third force user", making it clear its referring to a singular person and the next sentence clarifies that the force user was Muur. And I already stated that your interpretation of the quote is just a reaching attempt to find a loophole. Neither healing nor rakghouls were at all relevant in that situation, its clearly referring to Muur being straight up more powerful.
Originally posted by Nephthys😂 I mean, if I had to guess, the splitting of text colour indicating that Muur and Morne were speaking in unison indicates to me that they're talking to each other. But more to the point, that one line doesn't change what is happening on panel; Morne's hand is in the textbook gesture of producing lightning, which is coming from her fingertips. If you can think of a different energy absorbing technique that isn't tutaminis, but also looks exactly like Force lightning, you might just be the greatest scholar of esoteric Star Wars lore we have in our midst.
Did you... miss the line "I feed on your power and make it my own"? Muur was absorbing Krayts lightning. Morne was previously blocking Maladi's lightning with a different technique. Not entirely sure how that could be any more obvious.
That he was going to defeat her with it is merely your assumption.Literally not true, it's also Muur's assessment, and given that he can feel all of Morne's senses, her body and her power, I'd say he's in a good position to do so. To be clear, even Krayt could feel when Morne was drawing on Muur more heavily, so the notion that Muur is unclear about the situation is absurd.
The fact is that last we see of the situation she was successfully blocking them both. For whatever reason he stopped, you don't know why.Luckily... Krayt tells us.
Originally posted by NephthysIt says a third Force user possessed powers which outshone Krayt and Cade. CeleMuur being able to heal Krayt, something everyone else had failed at up to that point, easily qualifies. You're just trying to force an interpretation out of some odd kind of desperation.
It says "a third force user", making it clear its referring to a singular person and the next sentence clarifies that the force user was Muur. And I already stated that your interpretation of the quote is just a reaching attempt to find a loophole. Neither healing nor rakghouls were at all relevant in that situation, its clearly referring to Muur being straight up more powerful.
For the rest of your points.
Originally posted by ILS
The core point being, though, that you're saying Muur + his amulet, is more powerful than Muur's spirit + his amulet + an already considerably powerful Force user such as Celeste Morne.
No that's not what I'm saying. In fact, I haven't yet made the comparison between Murr parading in Celeste's body and Murr as he existed in the flesh. My point was that Spirit Muur - independent of any other force user as a conduit - would be substantially weaker than Murr with his own functioning body. This is seen with pretty much all sith spirits. He would be weakened in every possible manner in regards to affecting beings or objects with the force. To which you have this to say this :
Originally posted by ILSFully agreed
I'm glad you agree. You support the idea that Spirit Murr is weaker than his living self. Why is this relevant? Well, let's have a look at what you're saying.
Originally posted by ILSIn fact, Muur's powers of essence transfer and mind domination seemed to be totally ineffective against both Celeste and Cade. This pretty heavily indicates that at best, he might share parity with them, but realistically, he's inferior to them
Originally posted by ILSThe fact that Muur couldn't undermine the willpower of Celeste Morne despite sharing a mind with her for over a century is extremely telling.
That Muur's failure to dominate either two with Essence Transfer demonstrates his inferiority to them. Which is irrelevant given that :
1) He's a spirit
2) He's can't channel powers through them while attempting to invade them
3) It's probably not even a direct example of superiority/inferiority et all
You're core point here is that Cade and Celeste were able to resist Spirit Muur's attempts to control their bodies against their own will... which is irrelevant to the thread, given the iterations being discussed and the method of measuring them. So my actual point stands. That using spirit Murr's demonstrations of power does not give us a reliable indication to Cap living Muur... as you previously agreed. Now as for the equations you've come up with.
Originally posted by ILS
you're saying Muur + his amulet, is more powerful than Muur's spirit + his amulet + an already considerably powerful Force user such as Celeste Morne. I don't see much proof for this, one way or another, but I figure a spirit + a living Force user probably beats out just one Force user
Ultimately this comparison fails because... surprise surprise, Muur's spirit coincides with his living body. You can separate the spirit from the body, just as Exar Kun did with Luke. The reason Sith Spirits have a hindered ability to affect the physical realm with their powers is probably due to the lack of living tissue (midi-chlorians) needed to connect to the Force. Which is why they seek out a suitable conduit. A "host" body to channel their powers through. This is where your equation fails. Celeste Morne merely acts as a substitute for his own body in this instance - a suitable force sensitive vessel to use his powers through. So rather than the equation looking like this
a spirit + a living Force user probably beats out just one Force user,
It's more like this :
Muur's Spirit + Muur's physical body + Muur's talisman
vs
Muur's Spirit + Celeste Morne's body + Muur's talisman
The constant variables (the spirit and talisman) in this equation cancel each other out, meaning we're left down to wether Celeste's body has more natural potential to use the Force than Muur's own. Which isn't something either of us know. What we do know, however, is that Murr actively contends with Celeste for control over her body. As you put it, "a battle of wills" is commencing in this scenario. Meaning that if Muur is spending an inordinate amount of will power in keeping Morne at bay, it detracts from the powers he uses offensively. Given this circumstance, yes, we have reason to assume Muur is more powerful in his own corporeal body, where he isn't contending with another party for control of it.
Originally posted by ILSHowever, what I would say indicates inferiority, or at least parity, is that Muur had a century to spend sharing a mind with Celeste Morne. Over 100 years to weaken her resolve, attack her mind, tempt her, undermine her in every way possible. In stark contrast, Muur was able to tempt Shado Vao with telepathy to such an extent Shado left his room in the middle of the night to come and see the amulet, after seeing a vision of him trying it on for size..
All this does is prove that Celest Morne is >> Shadow Vao.
Originally posted by ILSBane also noted that the only way to counter sorcery is through sheer willpower, so while there are clear stylistic differences between the two which lend each advantages in different ways (Bane with melee combat, Zannah with sorcery), suggesting Bane is more powerful than her overall seems wrong.
Because the powers concerning duelling : augmentation, precognition and sensing the bare bones practices compared to fields like sorcery. One having more aptitude in the grass roots abilties indicates better raw power. This is oppose to comparing each others performances in the arcane. You would have a point if Zannah ragdollled him in their fight. More importantly, both have aptitude, training and a likening to the former study, while only bane has no talent for Sorcery. Ergo, he was the stronger force user during their fight, yet despite using a ritual that destroyed his body in the process, his essence transfer failed - ergo the failure to possess another being with essence transfer ins't a sound indication of inferiority/superiority between adversaries. Even if it was, Cade and Celeste are at best above Spirit Murr, who as you agree, is weaker than his living iteration.
I hope you realise I was simply using hasch's own terminology for the sake of brevity. I wouldn't quite describe the duel that way either, however...
https://thepreachersword.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/no-excuses-white-design-280.png
Then for debates sake, i ask that you don't pull similar stunts in regards to language. Because the only reason I addressed the Reborn Krayt vs Cade segment was because i found the term "trashing" misleading regarding their battle.
Even more telling, immediately after Krayt died, without needing to be attached to Cade with a talisman or being tethered to any power source, he entered his mind unwillingly, taunting him, "infecting" and "eating" his mind, leaving Cade so unsure of his control over his own body that he opted to fly himself and Krayt's corpse into the sun.
Cade seems to be convinced Krayt will take him over, because he is "eating" and "infecting" his mind - which is part of the identity being destroyed, as we discussed earlier - hence why he wants to fly both of them into the sun.
The idea that Spirit!Krayt would eventually invade Cade's Mind after his death was based on false pretences. This is evidenced by the fact that 1) it didn't happen. 2) that Living!Krayt had demoralised Cade with a doom and gloom vision depicting courescant as an ash tray, with Cade, fully possessed by Krayt, as the perpetrator.
And it's not like a fever dream vision ever mislead a Skywalker to commit acts of poor judgment before, right...? Cade was never under any real threat of possession, even if he personally thought otherwise. He was wrong.
Not only does that show laughable superiority to Muur on Krayt's part
It doesn't show any superiority to Muur on Krayt's part. Both of their attempts to possess Cade failed. Both Sith Spirits were vanquished. Muur because the object that tethered his spirit was destroyed. Krayt because he had nothing to tether his spirit to. That's why post-mortem Muur existed for a little longer than the comic equivalent of a few pages, and why Krayt did not. You can argue that Krayt made a little more leeway in undermining Cade's resolve, convincing him that suicide would be the safest bet to prevent his possession, but that's only because of the vision Cade had while the former was still breathing - a dying courescant at the hands of an evil Cade. And of course, after Skywalker dumped the Sith's body into the Sun, Krayt couldn't even reach him. The only time Krayt makes any genuine progress into "destroying Cade's identity" is during their battle, which still ultimately resulted in failure, to which you have to say this:
He had a far better time of it than Muur anyway.
That's because your comparing flesh and bone Reborn Krayt to Spirit Murr. A comparison I wouldn't dream of making. What's worse is that you've made this argument - that a failure to dominate ones mind shows realistic inferiority to the victim. Which would then mean that Cade > Reborn Krayt. I guess that means Krayt's use of dark transfer and against Cade was... a statistical uncertainty?
Krayt's era is the Legacy erawhich is written on the first page of any Legacy comic
and Muur exists during this era. So yes, this incapsulates Muur insofar as he appeared in the Legacy comics.
Except the quote doesn't say he's stronger than sith existing during this era. It says he's stronger than sith of Krayt's era Now there's simple question to conclude this premise. Is Karness Muur a Sith of Darth Krayt's era? The answer is no. A 19th century Flintlock Pistol doesn't become a firearm of modern times because one can be purchased on eBay. I hope I don't have to elaborate on this point again, given that you've already made an omission :
Muur's power during the Legacy era is intertwined with Celeste, who is not a Sith. Muur "of this era" is a spirit, but of his own era he is not.
So even if the quote incapsulates Muur (it doesn't) it's referring to him as a Sith Spirit, who has most likely, close to zero capabilities with TK and Lighting on his own.
Your logic clearly doesn't make sense, because Krayt learns how to heal himself during the fight. As soon as Muur starts healing him he "understands," which is precisely why he defies death shortly after.
The point was that if Muur has the better resources in the field Krayt dedicated his life to studying, he probably has greater depth of knowledge relating to combat too; a more potent variant of drain, better sorcery etc. Powers that can be used in a vs thread that the opponent may not even be able to counter. This is likely due to the amounts of sith knowledge that is destroyed or lost overtime.
Your two options are as follows:1. The "powers" Muur possesses which outshine them are those Krayt and Cade are lacking or less capable in, e.g healing and summoning.
2. Muur "outshone" Krayt by blasting him off the edge, and in the process he very much put on a more grand display than Cade, which would qualify as "outshining" him without strictly needing to be superior.
I much prefer to simply look at what is happening in the material and draw my conclusions from that, but if you're going to try and force the most preferable definition of your own cherry picked quote, I am going to do the same with mine, only that mine is pretty clear cut.
This is funny, because I also much prefer to look at what's happening in the material and draw my conclusions from that. Which is why accolades that describe events, make a comparison between characters where no clear superiority is established or simply hype someone, are simply useless to me. I've been consistent about this philosophy for a long enough time. Use of this quote was an appeal to those who are rigid in their approach to accolades - and honestly, i thought you fit in with that crowd. Those that view an accolade as nothing but evidence of itself. I disagree, which is why my thoughts on the thread are still this :
Originally posted by JmangoNot sure that either gets a decisive edge over the other.
I just found some of the attempts to undermine Muur bad. Such as use of a quote that can not reffer to him.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLightYour logic is like saying Obi Wan "curbstomped" Maul because he cut him down faster than Maul could even react.
Andi Gutierrez: "The actual duel between the two Masters is very short, like a samurai film. How did you come to the conclusion that it had to be done this way?" Carrie Beck: "We never entered into this story trying to think about how satisfying that battle should be, it really became about what was the genuine intention of this moment and knowing where these two men are at this point in their lives. I think it's important for us, even though on the timeline we aren't to A New Hope yet, to think about what we know of Obi-Wan in that movie and work backwards in some way, to make sure that the character's progression charts appropriately." Henry Gilroy: "When you fight someone many times, and have faced off, you kinda know each other's moves, so if you think about it, the biuldup to this confrontation and the actual lightsabers hitting each other is actually longer cause they're basically playing it out in their heads, and the amazing thing is the move that Maul tries after the initial exchange, he actually attempts the move that killed Qui-Gon Jinn. He tries to basically bash him with thehilt." Dave Filoni: "If you talk to a lot of people that sword fight, they'll tell you people that are very good don't have long fights. It's very quick. And so that scene, it's an homage to the Seventh Samurai. I think on one level people would be excited to see another prolonged lightsaber fight but I just never really saw the confrontation that way because to do that is to say the character's don't have growth. Yes, it's exciting as an audience member but it's not a really believable thing. The story telling has to evolve." Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eIZsJsck7A .
