Originally posted by relentless1
but nothing suggests that Vader could overcome Dookus battle prowess
Well Anakin could. Even during TCW he seemed to have a slight edge. And I doubt TCW Anakin > Vader.
And Honestly I think Vaders Saber duelling prowess is really under rated. He was solidly overpowering Ahsoka who seemed approx on par with Maul. How much better than that do y all believe Dooku to be.
Originally posted by Darth ThorVader has lost more mobility than Anakin already suffered from (which Dooku has exploited). Vader may have been made stronger, but he's far less mobile. He can't even lift his arms above his shoulders without great difficulty lol
Well Anakin could. Even during TCW he seemed to have a slight edge. And I doubt TCW Anakin > Vader.And Honestly I think Vaders Saber duelling prowess is really under rated. He was solidly overpowering Ahsoka who seemed approx on par with Maul. How much better than that do y all believe Dooku to be.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And Honestly I think Vaders Saber duelling prowess is really under rated. He was solidly overpowering Ahsoka who seemed approx on par with Maul.
Post TCW/SoD Maul is a joke. He was stomped by blind Kanan, old Ben and was on par with Ahsoka on DS nexus. And needed a help, against three inquisitors. Nice..
Savage's strenght in S3 was retconed and is far from being comperable to Vader's. Dooku, while supporting himself with tge Force was able to hold on against Yoda in saber lock, against Obi-Wan and Anakin in saberlock at once, and much inferior combatants could hold their own against Opress in S4/S5. Dooku is just a victim of pre-retconed Opress. That shouldn't be a factor here.
Originally posted by McP
Post TCW/SoD Maul is a joke. He was stomped by blind Kanan, old Ben and was on par with Ahsoka on DS nexus. And needed a help, against three inquisitors. Nice..
Thats some nice lowballing.
Kanan manages to push Maul off a cliff, then drops himself indicating he could not have fought Maul much longer. I wouldnt Call that a stomp.
Perhaps Old Ben is just that good. In any case he suckered him in with Qui-Gons stance. Not a move Ahsoka or Vader would be likely to replicate.
Prove this DS Nexus had any effect on combat abilities. FYI Malachor Maul likely hadnt fought anyone in a few years.
Maul was stomping Inquisitors. Something beyond Kanans level. FYI the Inquisitors are all former Jedi.
Sure Rebels Maul was more frustrated and hence could be more clumsy than TPM/TCW Maul, but there is little to suggest his peak combat abilities had massively declined.
Originally posted by McP
[B]Post TCW/SoD Maul is a joke. He was stomped by blind Kanan, old Ben and was on par with Ahsoka on DS nexus. And needed a help, against three inquisitors. Nice.
I do hope you apply this logic consistently:
->TCW Maul missed multiple clean shots on a fallen force sensitive
->Anakin got stalemated by Hondo.
->Dooku couldn't beat 20 pirates.
->Grievous got beat by 20 gungans.
->Yoda was bailed out against 20 droidekas.
I assume they are all jokes?
If you disagree then there's only two pertinent pieces of evidence:
->The fight with Kenobi
Addressed here:
Andi Gutierrez: "The actual duel between the two Masters is very short, like a samurai film. How did you come to the conclusion that it had to be done this way?"Carrie Beck: "We never entered into this story trying to think about how satisfying that battle should be, it really became about what was the genuine intention of this moment and knowing where these two men are at this point in their lives. I think it's important for us, even though on the timeline we aren't to A New Hope yet, to think about what we know of Obi-Wan in that movie and work backwards in some way, to make sure that the character's progression charts appropriately."
Henry Gilroy: "When you fight someone many times, and have faced off, you kinda know each other's moves, so if you think about it, the biuldup to this confrontation and the actual lightsabers hitting each other is actually longer cause they're basically playing it out in their heads, and the amazing thing is the move that Maul tries after the initial exchange, he actually attempts the move that killed Qui-Gon Jinn. He tries to basically bash him with thehilt."
Dave Filoni: "If you talk to a lot of people that sword fight, they'll tell you people that are very good don't have long fights. It's very quick. And so that scene, it's an homage to the Seventh Samurai. I think on one level people would be excited to see another prolonged lightsaber fight but I just never really saw the confrontation that way because to do that is to say the character's don't have growth. Yes, it's exciting as an audience member but it's not a really believable thing. The story telling has toevolve."
TLDR: The fight doesn't indicate the size of the gap though we know there is a gap due to repeated authoral clarification.
Also, there's no indication "old ben" is post prime in canon as he's stated to have grown as both a swordsmen and a force user. Maul is inferior to an ROTS Kenobi+ fighter, no shame there.
This leaves us with one piece of evidence:
-> The fight vs Ahsoka
Being inferior to Ahsoka, someone who's held off force attacks from Sidious, and contends with Vader for more than 2 minutes on the same nexus she edged Maul on isn't something to be ashamed of.
Rebels Maul is pretty clearly in the range of Vader who ten years prior was disintegrating light saber resistant creatures, and pulling down freighters much larger than the one tcw maul dragged of a cliff. As far as canon goes, there's only a handful of showings I can think of which are more impressive.'
Now for the Asgardian:
Thats some nice lowballing.
😆
Allow me to explain my choice of emoji.
I find this funny as jman's argument is the exact same argument you've been using for more than a year now as proof Maul was post prime as of rebels. Lowballing is fair game when you can use it to get your hearthrob out of the limitations he may showcase, but it isn't when assessing Maul's abilities?
Be consistent.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I do hope you apply this logic consistently:->TCW Maul missed multiple clean shots on a fallen force sensitive
->Anakin got stalemated by Hondo.
->Dooku couldn't beat 20 pirates.
->Grievous got beat by 20 gungans.
->Yoda was bailed out against 20 droidekas.
I assume they are all jokes?
If you disagree then there's only two pertinent pieces of evidence:
Dont forget both TCW Kenobi and TCW Vos getting repeatedly battered and embarrassed by Cad Bane.
Id take getting pushed off a cliff by an actual Jedi over that any day.