Dr. Manhattan vs Thanos

Originally posted by Robtard
DM's powers are activated at the speed of a thought, he thinks; it happens. Thanos has to think and then physically activate the stones to use them via gesture, that was made perfectly clear in the film multiple times.

This comes down to who can draw the fastest as either guy can one-shot the other. DM has the speed here.

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Plus DM can recreate an MBody starting with nothing, and he can easily create multiple duplicate MBodies that exist simultaneously.
That means affecting one of his MBodies wouldn't net Thanos a victory.

Originally posted by h1a8
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Plus DM can recreate an MBody starting with nothing, and he can easily create multiple duplicate MBodies that exist simultaneously.
That means affecting one of his MBodies wouldn't net Thanos a victory.

Yet you've posted no actual feats, you just continue to act like a troll.

Originally posted by Robtard
DM's powers are activated at the speed of a thought, he thinks; it happens. Thanos has to think and then physically activate the stones to use them via gesture, that was made perfectly clear in the film multiple times.

This comes down to who can draw the fastest as either guy can one-shot the other. DM has the speed here.

Based purely off film feats, I lean toward Blue Nuts. But in the context of what I know of these characters overall -- with their vast open powersets, and what could be inferred -- I hold back from saying, this contest seems almost spite in Prune Chin's favor.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Strange has created clones before. Thanos wiped them all out and pulled all the clones back into a single body when he wanted to.

The one time DM lost his primary body and switched to another, it took time (unless you feel like he watched because he was enjoying the ass kicking being dealt to his wife). And it still could fall to another reality gem attack.

Weaknesses? Let’s see.... mind gem, time gem, reality gem?

Those weren’t actual clones but some sort of energy contructs by Strange. It was only one true strange.

But Thanos doesn’t know DM still exists after he affects his Mbody.
Thanos would think he's won.

And that's assuming Thanos is the first on the quick draw. And that DM cant view the future.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Based on what showing, though?

That’s all I’ve been asking since my first post.

I’ve posted a reaction “feat” for Thanos w/c was within less than a second where he moved his hand and activated the gems to defend himself. All I asked since wayyy back was something from DM that made ppl think that he would act faster. A “feat”, a showing. Anything. No implied power/assumptions/theories.

And again, the one shot argument is a no-limits fallacy. No one has provided “feats” for DM outside of: blowing up ppl, dissasembling a tank and creating glass from sand. All well within what Thanos has been shown able to survive. Why is his durability being bypassed here?

From the perspective of actual “feats”, DM is sorely lacking.

Based on DM's powers being "I think and shit happens". When Lori threw the mug at him he became immaterial at will, letting the mug pass through him and it shattered the television behind him. He then reversed all that damage again with just a thought. You want more examples, watch the film again.

With Thanos, he clearly has to at least clench his fist to activate the stones and then typically do another gesture for the effect to take place. Not saying this is slow, just not faster than merely thinking.

Originally posted by Robtard
Based on DM's powers being "I think and shit happens". When Lori threw the mug at him he became immaterial at will, letting the mug pass through him and it shattered the television behind him. He then reversed all that damage again with just a thought. You want more examples, watch the film again.

With Thanos, he clearly has to at least clench his fist to activate the stones and then typically do another gesture for the effect to take place. Not saying this is slow, just not faster than merely thinking.

So avoiding a mug is his fastest reaction feat? That is still slower than moving an arm plus activating to block a laser in a specific spot.

And that had to do with his own molecules (w/c he has been shown to have absolute control) and not another’s?

I have shown several moments where DM had to make a gesture in order to blow up a target, where his teleportation took at least more than 1 second to 2 seconds before affecting their target.

Why is avoiding a mug suddenly superceding the validty of the actual direct showings that have visibly quantifiable time frames of said abilities that will be used to attack Thanos?

Originally posted by Mindship
This is what I keep coming back to. I think Thanos is overall more powerful, but his Gauntlet powers aren't "intrinsic" like Manhattan's.

Based purely off film feats, I lean toward Blue Nuts. But in the context of what I know of these characters overall -- with their vast open powersets, and what could be inferred -- I hold back from saying, this contest seems almost spite in Prune Chin's favor.

Though it is implied in DC comics that DM is truly god-like on a universal scale: Dr. Manhattan Confirms He's Behind DC's Rebirth

Originally posted by Nibedicus
So avoiding a mug is his fastest reaction feat? That is still slower than moving an arm plus activating to block a laser in a specific spot.

And that had to do with his own molecules (w/c he has been shown to have absolute control) and not another’s?

I have shown several moments where DM had to make a gesture in order to blow up a target, where his teleportation took at least more than 1 second to 2 seconds before affecting their target.

Why is avoiding a mug suddenly superceding the validty of the actual direct showings that have visibly quantifiable time frames of said abilities that will be used to attack Thanos?

FFS, it shows that his powers are solely on what he thinks, meaning they're at the speed of thought. So if he wants something to happen, it happens as fast as he can think it.

You're pulling an H1 now and scrapping to lowball, Nibs

Originally posted by Robtard
FFS, it shows that his powers are solely on what he thinks, meaning they're at the speed of thought. So if he wants something to happen, it happens as fast as he can think it.

You're pulling an H1 now and scrapping to lowball, Nibs

Dude. Then why does he gesture to blow up targets (he seems to need to raise his hand everytime he does so)? I can (edit, it’s possible I could have missed a moment or two, though) literally post every instance where he did so and he does. Edit. Here are some moments that I have found. Admittedly, it’s possible may have missed one or two:

He raised his arm on Vietnam, had his arm raised when he blew up the mobsters, raised his arm when he dissassembled the tank then closed his hand to crumple it, flicked his wrist when he blew Rorsh.

I am not trying to lowball here, I am asking ppl to base their arguments on evidence. My position is open for as long as proof is provided.

Why is that unreasonable?

I see DM merely removing the gauntlet from Thanos' possession with a thought, as he'd know that is the source of all of Thanos' power and then watching Thanos cry with as much compassion as he would a termite going about its day.

Originally posted by Robtard
Though it is implied in DC comics that DM is truly god-like on a universal scale: Dr. Manhattan Confirms He's Behind DC's Rebirth

Damn, didn’t see this second post. Lol. Ignore my “didn’t post “feats” comment at the end of the last one.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1. I have already pointed that out. Point is we don't just assume the reality stone effects everyone the same and as quickly as it did Drax. We wouldn't assume Thanos would just zap Surtur or Dormammu with the reality stone.

1b. Now hey, it possibly could, but for us to be absolutely sure feats against those combatants would be needed.

2. As for the sucker attack, well he might basically get that when DM is the one who sees things before they happen. Whilst the chances of a sucker attack on DM are pretty much Nil.

3. Okay this is going off on a bit of a tangent. The fact that Strange saw 14 million possibilities means he didn't know exactly what was going to happen. Further he had to meditate to see that. DM sees the future as he is walking and talking and fighting. The Future, Present and Past are the same to him.

4. On top he's also witnessed events which happen so fast they are not possible for humans to receive.

5. So yeah, in terms of reflexes, and whose likely to initiate an attack first, DM has that in the bag no doubt.

6. I realise you are only asking for evidences.

7. Did you really just ask that? Does a Jedi's pre-cog not allow him to act first, or Spider-Man's Spider-Sense.

8. Think you may be taking the rules a little too literally here, as they are not intended to gimp a character of one of his abilities.

9. In any case DM has been stated to have incredible speed time perception.

10. To initiate some attacks, yes. We know he only has to think to activate his teleportation abilities. And is there really any question to who thinks faster?

11. I mean, I would just assume that when fighting for your life is when you would act the fastest.

12. In any case, what you showed for the teleportation taking a full second (the faster showing), is how long it takes AFTER its already been initiated. So then we have to get into if Thanos could actually stop it once it's already been initiated.

13. But it clearly only takes a thought for DM to initiate.

Because his opponent basically has Pre-Cog and faster time perception?

14. Ah good one! That's actually much faster than I thought.

Here's DM vapourizing Rorschach:

You see at 3:08 DMs made that decision to kill him, he then waves his hand, also at 3:08 and we see Rorschach explode still at 3:08.

I would also like to point out that in using the reality stone to transmute, Thanos hasn't quite been as quick.

It takes him almost 2 seconds to draw, glow and hit Drax here:

But tbf that is neither here nor there, as your vid shows how fast he can draw. Just might take a little longer for reality changing to begin.

1. Well, no. We don’t. Because, well, they start off very very big. I’m assuming it would be at the speed he affected Knowhere/Titan for something as big as Surtur. And as for Dormamu, we don’t know enough about the character to fairly gauge how the gems would affect him. We do know that he was helpless against the time gem, though.

1b. Yes, but it’s all irrelevant and uneeded here.

2. Dude. They’re face to face. They both see each other. They’re both ready and have equal opportunities to strike. This is not even close to apples-to-apples with the Thor instance.

3. Duuuude, being able to see 14 million different variations of events that would happen as you change strategy (ever seen live die repeat or groundhog day?) is the ultimate form of prep. It is far superior and I mean faaaar superior than a single linear vision of the future (that you can’t even change). It’s not even comparable.

4. Yes, I mentioned this on my first post. And like I said to Rob, perception is not reaction and his ability to see things seem different than ours. Bottom line, how has he used it to help him do anything? He missed when he tried to grab Ozy, was caught completely by surprise when Comedian shot his baby momma and when he got ambushed the media and by the disintegration machine when he walked right into it. His abilties are implied to be cool and all, but what has he done with then?

Again, all I’m asking is evidence.

5. Not really.

6. Yes, and that is all I’m asking.

7. Precog allows us to Re-act better and NOT act faster by predicting what our opponents do before they do so we can act correctly and accordingly. Moving fast is a completely separate ability. Someone/something telling you to dodge at 1 second, punch at 2 and kick at 3 does not make any of the above actions faster.

And DM’s precog doesn’t even work that way if you read the post I provided.

8. It doesn’t really “gimp” DM, though. Fights start when they do. DM isn’t given bonus start time just because he has precog.

9. See above.

10. Teleportation takes over a second to do. I already provided evidence for this. It is not instant.

11. The motivation is certainly there. But we do not assume that his powers function differently without evidence.

12. He’s reacted fast enough when it was needed and he’s been able to counter a myriad of attacks sent his way with the gems. And how is DM teleportation going to make him win again?

13. I didn’t ask why you felt DM would move faster (w/c I disagree with), I asked why you implied that Thanos wouldn’t be able to act right away.

14. I am actually well aware of that showing. I actually posted it. Call me super overly anal-thorough but I slowed both scenes to .25x speed and timed them manually via a stopwatch a few times.

I timed Thanos’ block starting from Tony’s laser shooting out to impact of light to glove. [email protected] speed is .55 seconds (meaning it happend at around 1/8th of a second).

Timed DM’s Rorsch-splosion from moment DM’s wrist moved to explosion of Rorsch. Timed@ .25x is .90 seconds (meaning it happend more loss 1/5th of a second).

Now I’m pretty aware, at this point, that I’m splitting hairs. I am willing to accept that both are approximately as fast. But Thanos was a direct precise reaction with activation. While DM was a quick proactive gesture. What this seems to imply is that Thanos does have a marginally faster reaction on a much more difficult action than DM.

Still it, is within reason that either could more or less have equal chances to outdraw each other based on these alone. I would say that Thanos has the slightly better chance due to showings/“feats” to do so. But it also comes down to whether or not DM can one-shot Thanos. Which is arguable.

Originally posted by Robtard
I see DM merely removing the gauntlet from Thanos' possession with a thought, as he'd know that is the source of all of Thanos' power and then watching Thanos cry with as much compassion as he would a termite going about its day.

Well, it’s certainly your right to see things that way. 😛

Anyway, I guess we can agree to disagree if you don’t wanna discuss this anymore.

Thanos wins based off the tendencies of the characters and the feats. Much more battle savvy and tested than against the nothing can hurt me in my pitiful watchmen universe doc.

Nib I cant believe how fast youve responded to such a long post.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nib I cant believe how fast youve responded to such a long post.

I cant concede because I simply dont believe it. Nib hasnt convinced me the opposite way.

And Rob is right that DM clearly activates his power via thought. This whole speed Feats is just to make it a comparison and to abide by forum rules of On Screen Feats Only.

But stated power and putting together everything we know leads to implied power, which is a thing.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Well, it’s certainly your right to see things that way. 😛

Anyway, I guess we can agree to disagree if you don’t wanna discuss this anymore.

Cool and we can discuss it, but to me it's very clear that DM's powers are simply his will; when he wants something done (within his scope of power), it's as easy as him thinking it so. Which we've seen him do, I noted a scene.

Thanos has to activate the stones via gesture and then make some desired effect happen, this was made very clear every time he used the gauntlet. Thanos certainly has more raw power than DM's shown, but either of these cats can one-shot each other and DM has the 'quick draw', so to speak.

Look at it this way, lets say I have an RPG and you have a 9mm and you're a speed crack-shot with it. While I have greater fire-power, doesn't matter if you're faster and can still kill me with your lesser weapon first.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I cant concede because I simply dont believe it. Nib hasnt convinced me the opposite way.

And Rob is right that DM clearly activates his power via thought. This whole speed Feats is just to make it a comparison and to abide by forum rules of On Screen Feats Only.

But stated power and putting together everything we know leads to implied power, which is a thing.

Doc gestured every time he used his powers and he was far slower than Thanos. He acts within character not this hey I like this guy more powerset based nonsense.

Doc does not have to hone his reflex skills since no one is a threat to him so why suddenly expect that to change. We hi based off what we see not what you want to occur. Ozy blew him up which resulted in a forum win. Manhattan did grab him eventually got with the time it took to to grab Ozy Thanos would have downed him within the first second while he lollygagged.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nib I cant believe how fast youve responded to such a long post.

I didn’t think it was that fast, I just responded as soon as you posted (even missed the second page of your post, w/c I replied to a few hours after). 😛

Originally posted by Darth Thor
But stated power and putting together everything we know leads to implied power, which is a thing.

The problem with this method of debating is that it becomes entirely subjective what a character is able to do.

I’m gonna level with you, there is a method to my madness. The whole point of this exercize is to differentiate the provable (fact) from the plausible (reasonable opinion).

Do I believe a lot of what you and Rob say regarding DM’s implied power? Well, some are pretty reasonable. Can all those be proven in a debate as per forum rules? Maybe, maybe not. At the moment, we don’t knw yet. BUT that is the point. That is the beauty of this debate. I think for the longest time, a lot of posters have simply gone and accepted DM’s “nigh-omnipotence” due to his portrayal in the movie. But since he is a human among ants in his universe, that portrayal might not carry over when he is compared to other beings in other universes.

At the end of all this, it is my hope that we can finally and definitively establish what DM’s debate-provable capabilities are, and this will help future debates, I feel.