Dr. Manhattan vs Thanos

Originally posted by Robtard
Cool and we can discuss it, but to me it's very clear that DM's powers are simply his will; when he wants something done (within his scope of power), it's as easy as him thinking it so. Which we've seen him do, I noted a scene.

Thanos has to activate the stones via gesture and then make some desired effect happen, this was made very clear every time he used the gauntlet. Thanos certainly has more raw power than DM's shown, but either of these cats can one-shot each other and DM has the 'quick draw', so to speak.

Look at it this way, lets say I have an RPG and you have a 9mm and you're a speed crack-shot with it. While I have greater fire-power, doesn't matter if you're faster and can still kill me with your lesser weapon first.

Well, yeah. I agree with what you say. However,the fact is, there are a LOT of characters that trigger their power via “will” or “thought”. Mutants for example like Magneto do so just as well as DM. Yet “will” abilities sometimes come with required gestures and these gestures sometimes do take time. Heck, even “thought” doesn’t have a universally flat speed. Even IRL some ppl (trained martial artists, pro-gamers) can respond physically way before many (laymay) can even “perceive” or “think to act”. Stating simply that someone wins because his abilities work via “thought” is ignoring the fact that not all “thought”-based abilities and “trigger”-based abiltiies are equal or behave equally the same universally.

Not all reactions are equal. Not all efffects are equal. Even in real life. And in fiction, this is further exacerbated by the fact that each fictional universe behaves under its own set of rules, it’s own general levels of speed and reaction time and characters may even have diverse powers and abilities and skills that break these rules even further. And in the superhero genre, this is even moreso true than it is in other fictional genres.

That is why we use “feats” and showings to quantify what abilities can do. To make sure the conclusions we are making are based on information that is as absolute in accuracy and indisputable in credibility as we can. This is not only way we can come up with a conclusion (and we won’t always get what we need), of course, but I feel this is still the best way.

Is “thought” on average faster than “triggering” all things considered equal? Yes. That is reasonable logic. Are Thanos and DM considered equal in all things? No. Not even close. They’re not even in the same universe.

To answer your example there. A character in the Kung-Fu hustle movie universe firing a rocket launcher would actually out-draw a character from Gymkata universe for example (had to google “slow movie fights, and found that 😛 ). It can become silly sometimes, I know. But that’s usually what happens when one debates hypothetical fights between fictional characters in different fictional universes. 😛

It was stated that DM can perceive things so fast that it could be stated not to have occurred at all.
That means he can think pretty phucking fast. The first nanosecond he makes his thought.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I didn’t think it was that fast, I just responded as soon as you posted (even missed the second page of your post, w/c I replied to a few hours after). 😛

The problem with this method of debating is that it becomes entirely subjective what a character is able to do.

I’m gonna level with you, there is a method to my madness. The whole point of this exercize is to differentiate the provable (fact) from the plausible (reasonable opinion).

Do I believe a lot of what you and Rob say regarding DM’s implied power? Well, some are pretty reasonable. Can all those be proven in a debate as per forum rules? Maybe, maybe not. At the moment, we don’t knw yet. BUT that is the point. That is the beauty of this debate. I think for the longest time, a lot of posters have simply gone and accepted DM’s “nigh-omnipotence” due to his portrayal in the movie. But since he is a human among ants in his universe, that portrayal might not carry over when he is compared to other beings in other universes.

At the end of all this, it is my hope that we can finally and definitively establish what DM’s debate-provable capabilities are, and this will help future debates, I feel.

Oh I completely understand that. Problem is we never saw the full capabilities of DMs powers, because he was hardly ever challenged. Like the biggest challenge he faced was Rorsache.

So I get the not having a no limits fallacy, but there's also a reverse of that which is putting a maximum limit on him being exactly what he did show and nothing more.

But I'm happy to debate with what he has shown, as long as we do bare in mind that he's almost certainly capable of a lot more.

And for me personally even with what was shown and stated, he already seems pretty OP, which is why I'm pretty confident in favouring him.

^ Meant Ozzy not Rorschache.

Originally posted by h1a8
It was stated that DM can perceive things so fast that it could be stated not to have occurred at all.
That means he can think pretty phucking fast. The first nanosecond he makes his thought.

Post an example of him actually reacting that fast.

Originally posted by h1a8
It was stated that DM can perceive things so fast that it could be stated not to have occurred at all.
That means he can think pretty phucking fast. The first nanosecond he makes his thought.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Post an example of him actually reacting that fast.

I don't have to, it was stated in the movie.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't have to, it was stated in the movie.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't have to, it was stated in the movie.

It was never stated in the movie that he had nanosecond reaction time, you're a liar.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Well, yeah. I agree with what you say. However,the fact is, there are a LOT of characters that trigger their power via “will” or “thought”. Mutants for example like Magneto do so just as well as DM. Yet “will” abilities sometimes come with required gestures and these gestures sometimes do take time. Heck, even “thought” doesn’t have a universally flat speed. Even IRL some ppl (trained martial artists, pro-gamers) can respond physically way before many (laymay) can even “perceive” or “think to act”. Stating simply that someone wins because his abilities work via “thought” is ignoring the fact that not all “thought”-based abilities and “trigger”-based abiltiies are equal or behave equally the same universally.

Not all reactions are equal. Not all efffects are equal. Even in real life. And in fiction, this is further exacerbated by the fact that each fictional universe behaves under its own set of rules, it’s own general levels of speed and reaction time and characters may even have diverse powers and abilities and skills that break these rules even further. And in the superhero genre, this is even moreso true than it is in other fictional genres.

That is why we use “feats” and showings to quantify what abilities can do. To make sure the conclusions we are making are based on information that is as absolute in accuracy and indisputable in credibility as we can. This is not only way we can come up with a conclusion (and we won’t always get what we need), of course, but I feel this is still the best way.

Is “thought” on average faster than “triggering” all things considered equal? Yes. That is reasonable logic. Are Thanos and DM considered equal in all things? No. Not even close. They’re not even in the same universe.

To answer your example there. A character in the Kung-Fu hustle movie universe firing a rocket launcher would actually out-draw a character from Gymkata universe for example (had to google “slow movie fights, and found that 😛 ). It can become silly sometimes, I know. But that’s usually what happens when one debates hypothetical fights between fictional characters in different fictional universes. 😛

I get what you're saying, but specifically for these two, we have scenes of DM using his powers by just willing/thinking, while EVERY instance Thanos uses the stones, he has to clench the gauntlet to active a stone(s), usually followed by another gesture to produce whatever desired affect. The film made this aspect of Thanos' relation to the gauntlet and stones very clear.

Logic dictates that DM's ability to just think to use his powers is faster than Thanos who needs to think and then use a somatic element to use his.

edit: Kudos on name-dropping Gymkata 👆 I have it in my personal digital library, it's god awful but 80's cheesy goodness.

Originally posted by Silent Master
It was never stated in the movie that he had nanosecond reaction time, you're a liar.

Originally posted by h1a8
It could be Planck time he was referring to. All we know is that it is far faster than humans can perceive (which is the whole point).

The movie never said he had planck time reactions, you need to stop lying.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The movie never said he had planck time reactions, you need to stop lying.

English comprehension is a challenge for you I see.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't have to, it was stated in the movie.

Worst debater ever.

Originally posted by h1a8
English comprehension is a challenge for you I see.

Still waiting for you to post some proof, or are you just going to keep trolling?

Originally posted by Robtard
I get what you're saying, but specifically for these two, we have scenes of DM using his powers by just willing/thinking, while EVERY instance Thanos uses the stones, he has to clench the gauntlet to active a stone(s), usually followed by another gesture to produce whatever desired affect. The film made this aspect of Thanos' relation to the gauntlet and stones very clear.

Logic dictates that DM's ability to just think to use his powers is faster than Thanos who needs to think and then use a somatic element to use his.

edit: Kudos on name-dropping Gymkata 👆 I have it in my personal digital library, it's god awful but 80's cheesy goodness.

Even within the same character, not all abilities are created equal. Not all abilities are triggered equally.

Let’s take a very close approximation to DM here. The Silver Surfer (Fox). Another bald, naked uberpowerful character with a unique skintone.

In certain abilities: phasing (building phase, bus phase, shield phasing) and specific matter manipulation (swallowing the missile) it seems to show that it was pretty much instantaneous or at least required very little time and gestures.

However, for his energy attacks, he needed a rather lengthy attack gesture (drawing power from his board then releasing it).

Do we then ignore the latter evidence because he was able to do the former a certain way?

We have enough showings of DM disintegrating a target to know the exact process on how he does it. He uses gestures to do it each and every time. His arm/hand/fingers seems to need to be pointed a certain way (AFAIK). And these gestures take little bit of time to do (the fastest presented so far is around 1/5th of a second). Why ignore this evidence?

I was in high school when I watched Gymkata. Shamefully, I thought it was awesome at the time. Lol. Funny that google brought it up and upon seeing it again, I’m like: O_O

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Worst debater ever.

You would be one of them. I'm. One of the best actually.

Originally posted by h1a8
You would be one of them. I'm. One of the best actually.

Originally posted by h1a8
You would be one of them. I'm. One of the best actually.

The name H1 is synonymous with female genitalia. How do you figure that came to be?

DM can do shit without gesturing.
Its called fiction inconsistency.
Does Thor need to whirl his hammer to fly or to gesture to get his control his hammer to where he wants it to go?
Does Darth Vader need to gesture to force choke you from lightyears away?

Gesturing adds flair to the scenes. Does not mean that a character needs to do that in order to activate a power, especially when they have shown to activate powers without gesturing.