What Jordan Peterson says

Started by Scribble32 pages

Originally posted by Robtard
Seems the same to me, we'll just have to disagree here. Like I said, he seems to just be a wordy hack high off his own anal gasses, but if he's actually helped you for the better, no problem there.

Another poster brought it up when giving me a outline of Peterson and the roar-rrrr I, Male ideology. Found it odd that it was shown in the negative.

Well yeah, damn right he's helped me. I had a three-year suicide plan: achieve as much as I could in that time frame, then rid the world of my pathetic existence. I had good reasons, too, it wasn't just woe-is-me; I genuinely got to a stage where I could see no reason for me to be such a burden on my friends, family, etc.

I've since discarded the plan, as I found that most of my negative emotions were coming from myself, and that I had to change myself. It gave me a reason to change my diet, make my bed, and find a reason to live. It was really liberating. I don't think he's perfect, and I disagree with him on many topics, but he's given me a reason to live and the tools needed to achieve my goals, and so I have nothing but respect for the guy and can't quite figure out the hate he receives.

Yeah, idk about that one. Most of his stuff is pretty big on equality, but against equity (i.e., "equality of outcome"😉. His main slant on it is that there's certainly still a ways to go towards full equality, but that we should also give thanks for living in such a developed and still-developing part of the world, and that incremental change is better than revolution.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I found this ironic, considering your comments, tbh. 😐
Thanks for letting me know, I'll make sure to think really deep on this nugget of wisdom.

In general the hate is from something both sides do, They disagree with some of his points, thus he is evil/stupid and they'll jump on any mistakes or poor wording and claim it's proof that they were right about him.

It's a way to avoid having do deal with his main points.

Originally posted by Silent Master
In general the hate is from something both sides do, They disagree with some of his points, thus he is evil/stupid and they'll jump on any mistakes or poor wording and claim it's proof that they were right about him.

It's a way to avoid having do deal with his main points.

Pretty much, yeah. It's much easier to critique a man than an idea. Not that I expected much real discourse from this place, the only person who contributed anything of worth was The Lost (and I look forward to his response), although I also respect Rob's cordial and overall respectful approach. Everything else was just memes, context-less quotes and unfettered ignorance parading as moral superiority. But at least they all get to pat themselves on the back and feel smart.

I decided to come back briefly to the GDF to see if any of the chat was worth having, but I have to say, wading through the trash just isn't worth it. Proper shit discourse, innit.

Lol, I'm working on an hour long vid on Peterson, and I still think he's stoopid.

Originally posted by Scribble
Proper shit discourse, innit.
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Lol, I'm working on an hour long vid on Peterson, and I still think he's stoopid.

Why do this to yourself?

Originally posted by BackFire
Why do this to yourself?

I have a lot of free time, idk.

Surely you can find more productive ways to spend it. Like staring at a wall for six hours or watching a marathon of Hogan Knows Best.

Originally posted by BackFire
Surely you can find more productive ways to spend it. Like staring at a wall for six hours or watching a marathon of Hogan Knows Best.

I am actually pretty productive in school and life.

So you're telling me you already watch Hogan Knows Best?

Originally posted by BackFire
So you're telling me you already watch Hogan Knows Best?

Haven't done that one, I'll get to work.

Expect a new you, a better you, when you are done.

I would think the words Jordan says most are, I'm a ****. That's my guess.

Originally posted by Scribble
Thanks for letting me know, I'll make sure to think really deep on this nugget of wisdom.
please do 🙁

I hope Scribble takes a flashlight...

I'm worried because a law was passed with the intention to compel speech, something I stand against on moral grounds. Even if it were done for a 'positive' reason, it's something I disagree with. There's a lunatic in the White House and there's a different kind of lunatic in the... Canadian White House, too.

Nah, some lines were changed in the CHRA to protect transgendered people from workplace abuse. It's class protection, like minorities have in the States and Canada. It just means, for example, I cannot call someone who identifies as female "Bob" or "Frank" a bunch or it's considered discrimination, which seems pretty straightforward.

We make consistent trade-offs like this constantly so people can live freely without suffering abuse or encumbrance. I know you've heard lots of things about Bill C-16 but have you even bothered to look into it? You talked about second-hand information when having a discussion with Robtard. I thought you didn't support that, despite the fact that a lot of your perspective comes off as utterly second-hand.

If the Left isn't just as dangerous as the Right (I consider them to be equal in terms of how they can be used negatively), then explain the USSR and Maoist China. Explain the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Yeah, the Left is really ****ing dangerous.

You cannot only measure them with how they CAN be used negatively. That makes little sense. One is overwhelmingly more dangerous than the other right now, particularly in North America and even in some parts of Europe. Of course, we can discuss potentiality. Every political spectrum, just by it's very nature of existing, has that potentiality. Do I think it's anywhere as dangerous as the right, alt-right, or more right now? Unequivocally, no. I don't.

This doesn't mean I ignore the failings and faults of the left. Hell, it usually irks me even more because I typically associated with them. Everyone has partisan leanings, to some degree, but I try to distance myself as much as possible. I am just very vocal about the state of the right wing in a lot of developing nations because they are offered many dangerous, outdated, and morally bankrupt ideas.

We can discuss who's been worse historically, if you'd like, but I said the left is not more dangerous than the right. That means TODAY and the implication is pretty fair. It does not mean who WAS more dangerous. If we were, I'd bring up Nazi Germany, the Kingdom of Italy, a slew of South American countries, etc.

The students in 1960s America had something to fight for. These students have some things to fight for, but they're doing it in all the wrong ways. Their shutting down of 'hate speech' is nothing but them shutting down people they don't want to listen to. Shutting down Richard Spencer: yes, shut the ****er down. He's a racist ideologue and he has no place in society. Shutting down Shaprio? Yeah, no. Which leads me to...

No, there's plenty to still fight for. That's silly. I hope the implication isn't that, because there's no war, there isn't much left to fight for. I mean, we still have war anyway. lol

Right? I mean, or it's shutting down hate speech. Perhaps they have legitimate reasons why they may not want to hear these people? You're a centrist. You can see it from their angle, right? At least a bit? Students act like this anyway. They're trying to sort through complicated perspectives and new ideas during their time in University. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean they're right or wrong but it breeds an environment of extremism, which has been present in education for a long time, especially in America.

Shapiro can be a problem, to be honest. He has some really underdeveloped and caustic views on white privilege and transsexual individuals. Even Peterson tends to respect calling someone what they wish to be labeled, from what I understand. Shapiro has openly referred to trans men as women and trans women as men. He has repeated, time and time again, that trans suicide rates stay consistent even after transistion, which is demonstrably false. He also claims trans individuals are "simply delusional."

We can talk more about Shapiro, if you'd like as well.

I know Rubin to be moderate because he's laid out his political beliefs, and they're moderate. He doesn't need to tell me that. He doesn't give a platform to extremists, not as far as I've seen – who isn't an extremist in your eyes, though? Is Shapiro an extremist? Christina Hoff Sommers? Joe Rogan? Peterson?

How about Dinesh D'Souza, Roseanne Barr, Steven Crowder, Milo Yiannopoulos, etc?

Most of the mainstream media in the US is Left, and tends more and more towards twisted versions of the truth. They're just as culpable as an outlet like Breitbart for the propagation of false or biased narratives. There is very little journalistic integrity left anywhere. However, more people consume left-wing media overall, because there's more of it. Right-wing journalism has become slightly more esoteric overall, I suppose, and cultivated a more cult-like audience, but I couldn't say which is more damaging to society overall. Each do their part in playing the people off against each other.

A lot of them aren't great but how can you actually sit here and compare these institutes to Breitbart? So, a lot of leftist new sources can make mistakes and publish shoddy information. However, a lot of mainstream left news sources (including the dreaded CNN) have fired reporters for publishing inaccurate information or amending articles after the fact. Breitbart does not do this. The Daily Caller does not do this. InfoWars does not do this. Even if they've done it before, they have a slew of articles containing false information or bunk science. How does this not fundamentally bother you?

Also, there are, scientifically, only two genders. I believe there to be a lot of undiscovered interplay, mentally, between the two poles, but that doesn't stop the basic science from being true. You claim to be against the anti-science stuff... but clearly only when it suits your social agenda.

If you continue to say things like this that are flagrantly incorrect, we cannot have a conversation. I refuse to maintain a discussion with someone who will posit something like, "There are scientifically only two genders." Scientific consensus concerning this issue disagrees with you and everyone else when it comes to this absolutely ridiculous notion of "only two genders."

Now, observably, sex is usually binary. As in, most people either identify as male or female. Gender is culturally and socially constructed. Now, biology is a component of gender but not a defining component. Period. This is how it works and you should look more into this before saying "scientifically" there are only two genders.

Btw, I could be considered Trans: I have never identified, mentally, with either gender, although my biological sex is clearly that of a male. At one point I wanted to transition, because of an extreme dysphoria that I believed to stem from a clash between my mental 'gender' and by body. This passed, luckily; it likely just stemmed from mental illness (I have BPD and general depression). So thank god I didn't transition, right? It wouldn't have lessened my chance of suicide, either. Trans issues are super complicated and the Left approach is not helping matters. It's reductive and asinine and unfounded in science. Many on the Right are disgustingly reductive about it too, and I stand against them, too. But it doesn't change the fact that the Left's attempts at 'caring' and 'understanding' are basically just muddying the waters and making things worse.

You need to elaborate more on this. I need to understand how the left aren't helping trans issues when they are seemingly the only ones that realistically care or engage relevant and current scientific literature on the topic of transsexualism. You said the left was screaming but what I hear from the right is, "Gender dysphoria is a mental illness" and "you're still a man/woman", with both statements being horrendously inaccurate.

The fact that you see 'The Right' and 'The Left' as such concrete entities is telling of your limited perspective. Everything seems to be hegemony to you, and if you dislike both sides, that makes you a centrist, which makes you right-wing, which makes you a goddamn garden-ruiner! Or something?

You're not sitting here complaining about both sides. You're harping on the left and claiming the right and center are places for the discussion and the left is not. You agree with a number of platforms the right support on the regular, such as "two genders", you equivocate left media sources with right-leaning media sources (which is ridiculous. I don't care how much you hate the left or the right, right-leaning media institutions are garbage right now. This does not mean I disagree with all of their ideas, as I actually typically lean towards some economically conversative ideas, but the state of right-leaning news? It's abysmal), and then every so often when you post, vaguely go, "Yeah, the left too."

The right and left aren't concrete entities but I think you're asserted that they're far more nebulous than they actually are.

Yeah, nah, that's not me. I can discuss the Left trampling on free speech and discuss how awful a president Trump is, too. Not that difficult. Like I say, in my country, the (socially and economically) conservative government is stripping everything they can and throwing it to their rich mates. It's disgusting. Doesn't mean I'm not also concerned about what's happening to discourse at large, and the fact that Canada have passed a compelled speech piece of legislation confirms that worry.

Most Trump supporters can be categorized as often being alt-right and a lot of conservatives I know cannot stand him. Like, he's an easy one. It's a low-hanging fruit to say you dislike Trump as he's fucking horrible. Unfortunately, he is right-leaning so he represents the right and they have dominion and power in the United States, which means they have enormous global power. It's one of the reasons why I assert the danger of the right contemporarily.

Please stop talking about C-16 until you understand it better. Also, you can discuss concern but you've been more consistently critical and open, from what I've seen, towards the left but citing problems that should be realistically have precendence in discussion from the right.

Has the left misunderstood, say, Jordan Peterson? I'm confident that I can agree with that and it's not great. Do I think EVERY criticism of Jordan Peterson is unwarranted? I don't. I especially disagree with Peterson and think he has ideas that can be criticized when it comes to religion and philosophy. Like, big time. Those are the two largest areas I take issue with Peterson.

Now, that's a problem. However, do I think it's worth heavier discussion and more national attention than, say, someone like Trump who has the power to change and create legislation? Affect policy? For hundreds of millions of people? Who can affect and influence the global economy with retrograde, ineffective decision-making?

The answer is: Holy fucking shit, Jesus goddamn fucking Christ NO.

My biggest issue is both the left wing and the right wing should be way more focused on the failings of their own partisan affiliations and they aren't. However, unfortunately, there is a party that is growing in size, has global power, and is denying important ideas and research that tethers us to reality. Which party do you think that is?

Yeah, he's a piece of shit and his demagoguery is becoming concerning. Pretty much everyone hates him. Even your despised Shapiro regularly comments and critiques his policies and personality. Nobody is ignoring this.

Don't make assumptions like this. I do not "despise" Shapiro simply because I'd disagree about him being a moderate, criticize positions he holds, and label him as problematic. This doesn't translate to me despising him.

Why would you assume me to be ignoring all of the horrific stuff perpetrated by the Far Right? It's all there for us to see. You'd have to be cold as **** or a pure ideologue to deny how damaging these events have been to society at large. The Far Right is known for its penchant for violence. You assumed my beliefs and perspective, and you were wrong. I don't expect an apology though, probably just more posturing and signalling.

No, I really wasn't. Why would I apologize to you? I think your labelling your political positions inaccurately and I haven't seen you demonstrate anything for me to walk back on that position simply because you said, "Trump sucks." There are Republicans that would make you look left-leaning they are so goddamn right that don't like Trump.

Also, funny how you say how bad the Right are for critiquing Islam and then give some great statistics about Islam in the West. That's a whole lot of terror coming in. Should we discuss that? Or is it racist, somehow, to critique Islam and it's many dark articles of faith?

No offense but, if you want to discuss how Islam isn't a threat to the west and isn't a larger threat right now than Christianity (if you're implying the latter), you're going to get your ass kicked. We can literally have a WHOLE discussion about that. You can even open a thread, if you want.

I still don't understand GamerGate. However, the online communities of video gaming are frequently nesting grounds for all kinds of vile sexist, racist ans homophobic language. I mean, look at PewDiePie: he probably isn't racist, but he was so desensitised to the kinds of language people use while playing online games that he landed himself in hot water with that racial slur incident.

Okay, we can agree with that. Do I necessarily think that PewDiePie is a racist because he dropped that slur when he was mad? No. It's arguably very challenging to completely alter your linguistic blueprint throughout your life and that could be an honest mistake out of pure frustration. Does it HELP my perspective of him as a racist that he did that, though? I mean, no. Does it mean I think he is a racist? No.

GamerGate is frequently defended as being about "journalistic integrity", among other things, by the right and they typically fail to address the harassment and toxicity of the gaming community (particularly online) unless it's very vague and quick. I mean, look at recently with the Last of Us 2 trailer. Two women kissing? Every "gamer bro" loses their minds. "Oh, it didn't need to be there." What does that even mean? Do you think this would be an issue with torrents of YT videos from gamer bros if it was a man and woman kissing? If it was that male character Ellie was speaking to before she dances with that girl?

I'm sorry but covert racism and prejudice exists, in varying degrees. It can be misapplied and people have identified covert racism where it isn't present but how does this eliminate legitimate covert racism or potential prejudice (including sexism or whatnot) that genuinely is taking place?

The Left is just as dangerous. The Left is more insidious than the Right, or should I say, less brazen, perhaps? You can easily identify the problems in the Right: clear examples of hate proliferating in modes of speech and actions. It's harder on the Left. You clearly don't seem to see compelled speech laws or intersectional identity politics as dangerous, but I do, and I've seen that for years, way before I discovered Peterson. I'm not going to not comment on how damaging these Leftist modes of thought are just because Right-Wing Racists exist.

THIS is why I don't trust you as a centrist non-centrist or w/e the fuck. You don't seemingly understand a lot of these issues as well as you should but you default to the left being more dangerous and insidious than the right. Like, why? I mean, did we forget the southern strategy and how it's been transformed to a party staple for the right wing in America?

What makes the right dangerous is their diversity of hatred and engagement of dead ideology. Firstly, the right can operate in a space where they are simultaneously open about their prejudices and also be subtle and covert about these prejudices. As an example, where is the left variant of the North Carolina voter ID laws?

I don't see your compelled speech claim as dangerous because you are TOTALLY wrong about Bill C-16, as a specific example. It adds gender orientation and gender identity to the CHRA. This makes it against the law to deny someone employment or discriminate against them in the workplace, as I told you already, based on the gender they either express externally or identify with. It's fucking class protection, which is insane to argue against. Minorities in the United States, for example, have these class protections. An example would be how you cannot decide to not hire someone because they are black or, in the workplace, call them names or other pejorative terms.

Why are identity politics dangerous? We've been discussing identity politics from time immemorial. It is important in religion, social classes, culture, education, language, sex, gender, employment, partisan affliation, and more. Why do you take issue with this? All the "intersectionality" portion of that discusses is how power dynamics affect marginalized groups within our society. That's fucking bad? How?

Personally, I think Trump was always going to happen. I think he might have been the better choice, because if we survive a Trump presidency, maybe everyone will see why Big Government is such a flawed system. It encourages celebrity politics and removes people from issues, instead allowing them to focus on the most obvious element: this one big powerful person who is charge of everything. Nobody should have that much power.

Firstly, Trump might have authoritarian leanings and desires but America is not an autocracy. Trump does not have all of the power or else trans people would be out of the military, I imagine the wall would be built, and more. Who knows if he even wanted to build the wall, though? Dude's a lying piece of shit demagogue, through and through.

You think Trump was a better choice than Hillary? Is that what you meant? There's another discussion we could potentially have because I disagree utterly and completely, even though I also did not support or appreciate Hillary.

Your hate consumes you. You can see the Right as offering nothing of value. That is on you, not anyone else. The Left and Right are both needed for society to grow (which is another belief of mine that I was pleased to see Peterson discussing; it's not that I've adopted Peterson's ideas, it's that he has summed up a lot of my own views on ethics and philosophy), and the more people learn to actually ****ing love thy neighbour despite everything, the better life will be for us all. And things are much better than they were a hundred years ago, so I'd say we're doing alright.

Right now? Yeah, it's challenging to see what value they offer. No, it's not on me. It's on the right. It's just tough to love thy neighbour when some of them don't want you in the country, don't think you share their values, and try to undermine your place in society.

Nah, you're high-horsing to all ****, mate.

No, not really. I really despise the state of the right wing in North America and in parts of Europe. This doesn't mean I'm "high-horsing." I think I have legitimate criticisms to offer and I believe you're understating the damage that the right affords society at this time.

I already explained this: I was describing my actions, not my own label for myself. I am a centrist in practice, but I eschew political labels as descriptive terms as they do not exemplify my beliefs. Wtf does 'centrist' even mean without qualifying political context? I used it accurately at the time, but you're focusing on this as if it's some kind of huge egregious error on my part that I have to atone for. Laughable.

It just seems like you label-swapped yourself because you cannot properly define centrism or other areas of the political spectrum. You said you weren't "describing a label for yourself" but saying "I am firmly a centrist in practice" is doing exactly that. I mean, it's not like you said you were a centrist "in theory" or something. Then, you said you wouldn't label yourself anything, INCLUDING centrist, in concrete terms when you had already done that. Saying you're "firmly a centrist in practice" is concrete.

By the way, our "actions" or "perspective" can create labels. That's not something we have to shy away from. For example, if you showcased that you had a fundamental antipathy for democracy, supported scientific racism, and "hated the Jews" (anti-semitic), it's not inaccurate to label said individual a "Nazi." Especially if this individual supports a collection of these ideologies.

The reason why I go at a great deal of centrists I come across is that they try to CLAIM they are centrists when they heavily lean to the right, especially these days (outside of classical political definitions), and have very few left-leaning positions. Then, they claim, "Yeah, I'm in the middle." I guess a lot of centrists literally associate the political "middle" as being like a physical balance? It's a bit silly. Everyone falls somewhere and you can either be aware of where you fall and how FAR you fall on certain portions of that axis or you can feverishly deny it.

I think most intelligent people do try to disassociate themselves from aligning too heavily with any particular end of the spectrum because it carries with it inherent dangers. One need be careful just how much they disassociate from that when trying to coalesce their political perspectives as it can lead to mislabeling or, even worse, denying proper labels and donning inaccurate ones.

For example, I'm obviously left-leaning. I agree with a lot of left-wing political ideas so I'd describe myself as such. I never say I'm "nothing" because it's untrue for everyone so the statement is nonsense.

I don't think you have to atone for it but I do think the error says more than you'd say it does about where you politically stand. Like I said previously, I think you might have more to consider about what these things mean. So no, not laughable.