Graviton Vs Orion

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
IMHO, if we have to argue that Orion would win through telepathy possibly (I think Orion has used telepathy in an offensive manner less than Thor has used matter manipulation) then that says all that needs to be said....

The Mother Box has a host of powers it has randomly displayed, but personally, I think it's far more likely, and that Graviton would effortlessly crush Orion after dismissing his Astro-Force blast more often than Orion strategies to use telepathy instead of leading wiht a frontal assault, multiple times.

That i agree. I was just trying to make this fair. Because if Orion doesn't use MB's exotic powers he gets crushed instantly.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

I think to do what he did in that storyline, he'd have to be a Skyfather or close to it. It might not be Skyfather in scope (I.e. he wasn't tossing Galaxies around with his gravity), but in terms of relative power, it was. Personally, I think it's way beyond Trans to accomplished what he did imo.

In that particular story i wouldn't disagree that he was skyfather-ish. Nor do i disagree with it being based on relative power as opposed to collateral damage. All that is fine.

What i disagree with is you using his most powerful portrayal to base your opinion. It was by far his most impressive showing and on average he's portrayed as trans.

yeah, that was a bit of an outlier. his standard levels are plenty high. could he simply remove MB or can orion mentally control it, have it teleport back to him for instance? i don't recall that being the case but he may have done so at some random point. right now we're just trying to make this competitive though. i'd take graviton for a vast majority in this. graviton could potentially take on the league in the same manner polaris did so.

But that's the version being used in this thread.

And that's the version Machine Man's parts defeated.....

I made a respect thread for graviton and machine man... making me the victor

Do you think the Motherbox can replicate what Machine Man's parts did?

IMO, the MB is enough of a plot device to replicate almost any technology if the plot calls for it.

Originally posted by operator616
That i agree. I was just trying to make this fair. Because if Orion doesn't use MB's exotic powers he gets crushed instantly.

In that particular story i wouldn't disagree that he was skyfather-ish. Nor do i disagree with it being based on relative power as opposed to collateral damage. All that is fine.

What i disagree with is you using his most powerful portrayal to base your opinion. It was by far his most impressive showing and on average he's portrayed as trans.

Fair enough.

The OP specified, "wreck-everyone" Graviton, which is why I'm not using The mean, but rather 2 standard deviations away to the + if his showings were plotted on a standard normal distribution with a mean of 0.

I agree. I think this was just miscommunication. 👆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆. It's pretty much how Jolt and Charcoal - during the timeframe you specified in the OP - defeated him.

https://imgur.com/a/ZAaZh

Using tech from Machine Man, which cancels the gravity equation,.

How does he cancel it? By creating - you guessed it - a negative gravity current.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/2001-8-09.jpg

IOW, Graviton has been defeated in the past by weaker opponents, who used advanced tech to reverse the polarity of gravity. Comic science, sure.

This is the fight with Jolt etc. They didn't just negate gravity and fly whatever....they were completely immune to his powers, thanks to the arm bands.

And again, this was 'wreck everyone' Graviton.

what makes you think orion would even think to reverse polarity? he's a brawler above all. could MB be said to be able to do something? yeah, probably. maybe. but the times he uses MB for that type of offense is, afaik, enormously rare. i'd still take graviton for a huge majority. also begs the question if beating him were so easy, you'd think stark's armors would have been able to come up with something one of the dozen or so times they met.... jolt/charcoal feels a little pissy which is another reason why i don't see the tactic as being all that viable for orion.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Do you think the Motherbox can replicate what Machine Man's parts did?

Yes. Keep in mind machine mans parts were losing its potency as time went on

Now would Orion in the heat of the moment and in character do that and actually beat graviton with that trick?*shrugs*

Originally posted by leonidas
what makes you think orion would even think to reverse polarity? he's a brawler above all. could MB be said to be able to do something? yeah, probably. maybe. but the times he uses MB for that type of offense is, afaik, enormously rare. i'd still take graviton for a huge majority. also begs the question if beating him were so easy, you'd think stark's armors would have been able to come up with something one of the dozen or so times they met.... jolt/charcoal feels a little pissy which is another reason why i don't see the tactic as being all that viable for orion.

1. I've already posted Orion....doing exactly that, reversing polarity.

2. Jolt/Charcoal only feels PIS...why? Stark doesn't fly by using negative gravity, he uses repulsors.

In fact, no one else flies like that, IRC.

3. Why isn't it PIS that it hasn't been used more often on Graviton? He was kept securely under lock and key in the Raft, for example. Hardly Skyfather/trans there.

That's like saying Magneto BFRing anyone is PIS - because if it were that easy, he'd do it all the time. Or Superman using his speed is PIS. Or ....you get my drift.

If you want to argue CIS, sure. I can see that. But then,as I showed, when he was about to be defeated, THAT'S precisely when he used the MB to reverse polarities.

So match starts, he uses the AF, screaming about being the War Dog of Apokolips,the Hunter of Gods, whatever.

Graviton shields himself, then crushes Orion.

OrionTHEN tells MB to reverse, becomes immune,wins.

Assuming MB doesn't just do it herself.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Orion wins by reversing the polarity of Graviton's attacks.

I never understood in that Thunderbolts story how Graviton avoided creating a black hole and becoming a mindless rock monster.

I never understood in that Thunderbolts story how Graviton avoided creating a black hole and becoming a mindless rock monster. Bad and inconsistent writing in my opinion. The writer didn't get the Oozaru Rock Monster aspect of Gravitons powerset... Clearly a hack.

Originally posted by leonidas
what makes you think orion would even think to reverse polarity? he's a brawler above all. could MB be said to be able to do something? yeah, probably. maybe. but the times he uses MB for that type of offense is, afaik, enormously rare. i'd still take graviton for a huge majority. also begs the question if beating him were so easy, you'd think stark's armors would have been able to come up with something one of the dozen or so times they met.... jolt/charcoal feels a little pissy which is another reason why i don't see the tactic as being all that viable for orion.

Orion has used Mother Box(or the Astro-Force) more strategically or creatively when facing opponents different from someone he could brawl with, like how he beat an energy being left from Old Gods technology. So him rarely doing things like that could simply be because he rarely has to. The better argument would be if Orion would decide to do that in time. With the "common knowledge" thing, he very well may avoid even trying to fight the way he normally does from the start and use Mother Box immediately.

Way I see it, either one of two things happen:

1. Orion opens with polarity reversing, 'he has the powerset'. This is what would be termed CBR debating. Orion wins.

2. Orion opens with blasting, maybe punching, definitely screaming. In character. It fails. Graviton is too powerful to defeat like this (you guys can argue if the Astro Force is < Graviton. Orion starts losing.

THEN he reverses polarity. As seen on panel, it's what he does.
Orion then wins.

So either he wins outright, wins through blasting after a long battle,or wins through exotic means when blasting doesn't work.

By the by, when Orion was on the Moon, the shockwaves from his attacks were threatening to tear the Earth apart:
https://imgur.com/a/OWjSv

Delta, what separates MB from AF?

Got to agree Orion wins. Graviton is on average appearance (not this outlier) a chump regardless of power level.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
1. I've already posted Orion....doing exactly that, reversing polarity.

2. Jolt/Charcoal only feels PIS...why? Stark doesn't fly by using negative gravity, he uses repulsors.

In fact, no one else flies like that, IRC.

Repulsors are electro-magnetic fields which focus ionized particles. And hardball has contained Gravity (the character who can also manipulate gravity) in... you guessed it, EM fields.

Crystal is able able to tap into the gravitational field of the earth and yet she was helpless in Graviton's grip

Wonder man has nullified anti-gravity with his ionic form iirc and yet... he has lost to Graviton several times.

That's why you have to take into account power levels and not just power sets, you're putting too much stock in that single scan of yours.

Originally posted by operator616
That i agree. I was just trying to make this fair. Because if Orion doesn't use MB's exotic powers he gets crushed instantly.

In that particular story i wouldn't disagree that he was skyfather-ish. Nor do i disagree with it being based on relative power as opposed to collateral damage. All that is fine.

What i disagree with is you using his most powerful portrayal to base your opinion. It was by far his most impressive showing and on average he's portrayed as trans.

Don't forget that Orion can turn intangible via the Mother Box, so it's entirely possible that he won't get crushed.

Graviton has manipulated Vision's intangible form. So intangibility is not an option either. Telepathy is the best option as ive said. At least imo.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
.
Delta, what separates MB from AF?

Not sure what you mean. How he uses them?