Originally posted by FrothByte
Why are we discussing bullets again when Thor has already tanked more powerful stuff?
Because according to H1 withstanding bullets is the best durability feat possible in fiction. granted, he is basing that on his poor grasp of physics, inability to properly research and his even worse ability at math.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Do your math.You were shocked, yet you didn't think that maybe your math was off and passed it off as fact anyway? You didn't think that maybe the sites meant specifically for ballistics were a little bit more on the nose with the force of a bullet?
We have the actual force, a way to convert that into psi with the diameter and length. I don't know why you keep threatening with your math when the actual psi takes less than a minute to figure out. No one is stopping you however from proving your point. You already switched up your base numbers tremendously anyway so I know for a fact you won't come anywhere close to 313 million tons.
Stop stalling and do it. Then we can talk about it.
Actually, sites give the energy of the bullet (not force) which is force x distance (for example, foot pounds).
The force of the bullet ON an object (there is no such thing as force of a bullet) depends on the stopping distance.
Everything I did was necessary. You guys posted a lot of kinetic energy online calculators. Kinetic energy is not force.
The tip of the bullet is circular.
I'll do the math in a little bit.
I didn't check the math because I used programs to do the conversions. Didn't feel like checking by hand.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111136785/6054692-img_1418.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111136785/6054691-img_1417.jpgHe gets hit in the leg and falls down. If Ultron missed a stationary Thor in a storm of bullets but hit Quicksilver though...
There's also the fact that Hulk utterly tanked it and Thor with his various upgrades is at least as durable as Hulk. He's certainly not far enough below that bullets that bounce off Hulk's skin would tear straight through Thor anyway.
Plus iirc, this was 30mm ammo. Which is way more powerful than a Vulcan.
I still don't see Thor getting hit. I'm being completely honest.
Also characters don't share feats, especially high end ones.
Showings can be inconsistent making characters have high and low showings.
Thor was once not bulletproof in the comics at that same time he was a physical peer to Hulk. Same goes for WW, who is physical peers (if not superior) to many characters who are bulletproof. And Why the hell is Jessica Jones not at least low level bulletproof? She can break solid steel (locks, chains, etc) like they are made of fortune cookies. Her flesh has to be durable enough to withstand the stress and strain (pressures) needed to casually break the steel quickly and effortlessly. But bullets go through her just as easily as it do humans. So the logic that Thor should be bulletproof to aircraft bullets, because Hulk is, is faulty.
Originally posted by h1a8
I still don't see Thor getting hit. I'm being completely honest.
Also characters don't share feats, especially high end ones.
Showings can be inconsistent making characters have high and low showings.Thor was once not bulletproof in the comics at that same time he was a physical peer to Hulk. Same goes for WW, who is physical peers (if not superior) to many characters who are bulletproof. And Why the hell is Jessica Jones not at least low level bulletproof? She can break solid steel (locks, chains, etc) like they are made of fortune cookies. Her flesh has to be durable enough to withstand the stress and strain (pressures) needed to casually break the steel quickly and effortlessly. But bullets go through her just as easily as it do humans. So the logic that Thor should be bulletproof to aircraft bullets, because Hulk is, is faulty.
Did Quicksilver get shot?
@One Big Mob
We already know the maximum penetration of Vulcan ordinance. All this math is meaningless. Real world > theoritical BS of a biased poster. What h1 has not proven is if his methodology is a correct. If it was, then there would be online literature that uses the same study for ballsitics vs armor comparisons. Til then, you should simply disregard it.
A Vulcan bullet can penetrate up to about 13mm or half an inch of RHA (w/c is a slightly more durable piece of steel). Here is a study on the material properties of RHA made by the USA Ballistics reasearch lab for 38mm and 100mm RHA:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a041560.pdf
I do not have time to go thru the study, but if you want it here it is.
Originally posted by h1a8Isn't force wildly below kinetic energy?
Actually, sites give the energy of the bullet (not force) which is force x distance (for example, foot pounds).
The force of the bullet ON an object (there is no such thing as force of a bullet) depends on the stopping distance.Everything I did was necessary. You guys posted a lot of kinetic energy online calculators. Kinetic energy is not force.
The tip of the bullet is circular.
I'll do the math in a little bit.I didn't check the math because I used programs to do the conversions. Didn't feel like checking by hand.
And literally not an accepted way to measure bullets like the ****ing kinetic energy of a bullet is?
You keep saying you're going to do the math but you've had hours to not do it while you keep posting.
Do the math h1, so you can stop saying online calculators with no human error are wrong. Like you admitted you made mistakes and changed every number you had already... but yes, online calculators are wrong.
Do the math.
Originally posted by h1a8Of course you don't.
I still don't see Thor getting hit. I'm being completely honest.
Also characters don't share feats, especially high end ones.
Showings can be inconsistent making characters have high and low showings.Thor was once not bulletproof in the comics at that same time he was a physical peer to Hulk. Same goes for WW, who is physical peers (if not superior) to many characters who are bulletproof. And Why the hell is Jessica Jones not at least low level bulletproof? She can break solid steel (locks, chains, etc) like they are made of fortune cookies. Her flesh has to be durable enough to withstand the stress and strain (pressures) needed to casually break the steel quickly and effortlessly. But bullets go through her just as easily as it do humans. So the logic that Thor should be bulletproof to aircraft bullets, because Hulk is, is faulty.
Movies aren't comics with different writers making crazy inconsistencies though. Thor tanked an aircraft firing on him in comics and the only time he's been penetrated by a bullet is after that with a handgun. Plus movies aren't subject to 60 years of change in knowledge, nor are they subject to one guy absolutely hating super powered people (Priest). There is no correlation there. You're using completely different medias to try and apply logic to one, while at the same time saying Wonder Woman should be able to tank bullets, and are using force and psi as an accurate way to measure bullet damage.
If it doesn't count because bullets are magical things that bypass logic in comics, then why are you trying to apply "logic" to bullets to try and say Thor can't take one. Why are you trying to say comics are illogical while still using them with real world logic?
Why did you use zero examples from the Marvel movies?
Originally posted by NibedicusI am firmly aware.
@One Big MobWe already know the maximum penetration of Vulcan ordinance. All this math is meaningless. Real world > theoritical BS of a biased poster. What h1 has not proven is if his methodology is a correct. If it was, then there would be online literature that uses the same study for ballsitics vs armor comparisons. Til then, you should simply disregard it.
A Vulcan bullet can penetrate up to about 13mm or half an inch of RHA (w/c is a slightly more durable piece of steel). Here is a study on the material properties of RHA made by the USA Ballistics reasearch lab for 38mm and 100mm RHA:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a041560.pdf
I do not have time to go thru the study, but if you want it here it is.
The issue is, is that even in h1's own made up way to measure bullets, he is wrong. He will never admit he is ever wrong unless he can't replicate those same numbers. And I want to see every step of the way that he does it as well, so I can make him question everything.
Look at the progress being made so far. I know he will simply revert back to trolling, but look at it. He's tossed out all his numbers. He's given up on radius. He's admitted he's probably made a mistake somewhere. He's almost quadrupled a very important number. Etc. Would he have done any of this had you guys just kept (correctly) stating facts? There's something off in that headpiece of his and facts don't get to it unless you explain why it's right or wrong. At least from my experience.
I have hopefully another couple days to see where this heads, so we'll see. Keep throwing out the facts though, it's fun seeing how crazily inaccurate everything h1 is saying.
Okay, while I disagree with H1 on pretty much everything else here, I will say that he does raise a good point about characters like Jessica Jones and WW. Writers really screw it up with them because, based on their strength feats, as well as other durability feats, they should really be at least MCU Bushmaster-level bullet resistant. Jessica can casually snap a steel chain with her bare hands, or casually crush the back rest of a metal chair, or punch a hole through a car's hood, without even bruising a finger. Hell, she got rammed by a friggin truck hard enough that it had a Jessica-sized dent in its front and the engine was messed up IIRC, and only cracked a rib. Yet bullets and blades mess her up badly.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Okay, while I disagree with H1 on pretty much everything else here, I will say that he does raise a good point about characters like Jessica Jones and WW. Writers really screw it up with them because, based on their strength feats, as well as other durability feats, they should really be at least MCU Bushmaster-level bullet resistant. Jessica can casually snap a steel chain with her bare hands, or casually crush the back rest of a metal chair, or punch a hole through a car's hood, without even bruising a finger. Hell, she got rammed by a friggin truck hard enough that it had a Jessica-sized dent in its front and the engine was messed up IIRC, and only cracked a rib. Yet bullets and blades mess her up badly.
A major difference is, we have seen bullets mess them up, so the argument about them not being bulletproof actually has evidence behind it. MCU Thor has never been shown being injured from a bullet. This whole argument started because H1 was trying to massively downplay Thor's durability and it rests entirely on it his lack of math skills.
Jessica isn't even as strong Bushmaster.
According to MCU, bulletproof is somewhere between Jessica Jones and Bushmaster. There's no contradictions between the characters, only what feats you think should make them bulletproof. WW is from a different universe entirely where she's not bulletproof.
None of this applies to Thor/Hulk. You're speaking about the minimum levels required to be bulletproof while comparing it to 30mm bouncing off Hulk's skin while h1 assumes 20mm would tear Thor to shreds... despite - and this is also contrary to the minimum requirements where they don't actually have feats... or Jessica doesn't to show she could certainly tank bullets - having vastly better feats than that.
H1 raises a point not relevant to Thor. Jessica Jones should tank bullets despite not being as strong or as durable as the guy who gets imprinted by bullets. Thor two upgrades later is again, at least on par with Hulk durability wise. I'm not saying 30mm would bounce off his skin harmlessly because he's as durable as Hulk, I'm saying it's absolutely foolish to believe he'd get ripped to shreds by 20mm. Even ignoring Thor getting blasted by 30mm and magically every bullet missing somehow.
And Thor has vastly superior feats to taking aircraft bullets. Especially when h1 is trying to use pressure to say bullets would do it.
My comment was more a general observation about bad, inconsistent writing than anything regarding Thor or this match.
That was literally the point I was making about Jessica. Based on her better durability feats, as well as her strength feats, her overall durability, but especially her piercing durability, should be higher than it is generally portrayed as. Hence it being bad, inconsistent writing. This is not in any way, shape or form implying anything at all about Thor's durability. No idea why people are trying to connect the two when my opening line said I disagreed with H1 on everything else he said here, which obviously then includes the crap he is talking about Thor.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
My comment was more a general observation about bad, inconsistent writing than anything regarding Thor or this match.That was literally the point I was making about Jessica. Based on her better durability feats, as well as her strength feats, her overall durability, but especially her piercing durability, should be higher than it is generally portrayed as. Hence it being bad, inconsistent writing. This is not in any way, shape or form implying anything at all about Thor's durability. No idea why people are trying to connect the two when my opening line said I disagreed with H1 on everything else he said here, which obviously then includes the crap he is talking about Thor.
H1 is the type of troll who will latch on to your comment about him having a point and ignore everything else you said, we're just covering our bases.
Originally posted by h1a8
We have no idea whether Thor was hit or not. It wasn't shown.
Do you really not see how you have literally Zero basis for assuming Thor isnt completely bullet proof when both IM and Hulk are, and when you even admit Thor was standing in the line of fire and nothing happened to him, yet every single other person in that line of fire were shot down dead.
I get that you are massively trolling but in case youre convincing yourself, you should really think about the basis youre using for such a ridiculous assumption.
Its one thing not assuming street levellers like Jessica Jones are not bullet proof. But a Herald like Thor with the hits hes taken and the opponents hes defeated... Really?
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Jessica isn't even as strong Bushmaster.According to MCU, bulletproof is somewhere between Jessica Jones and Bushmaster. There's no contradictions between the characters, only what feats you think should make them bulletproof. WW is from a different universe entirely where she's not bulletproof.
None of this applies to Thor/Hulk. You're speaking about the minimum levels required to be bulletproof while comparing it to 30mm bouncing off Hulk's skin while h1 assumes 20mm would tear Thor to shreds... despite - and this is also contrary to the minimum requirements where they don't actually have feats... or Jessica doesn't to show she could certainly tank bullets - having vastly better feats than that.
H1 raises a point not relevant to Thor. Jessica Jones should tank bullets despite not being as strong or as durable as the guy who gets imprinted by bullets. Thor two upgrades later is again, at least on par with Hulk durability wise. I'm not saying 30mm would bounce off his skin harmlessly because he's as durable as Hulk, I'm saying it's absolutely foolish to believe he'd get ripped to shreds by 20mm. Even ignoring Thor getting blasted by 30mm and magically every bullet missing somehow.
And Thor has vastly superior feats to taking aircraft bullets. Especially when h1 is trying to use pressure to say bullets would do it.
Jessica can casually break steel locks and chains. Do you know the tensile strength of such? Those extreme tonnage of pressure on her yet bullets go through her as easily as humans?
WW is extremely relevant to the thread. Why? Because you used a particular rule as if it's always true. It isn't, as I gave a counter example.
Using counter examples for other characters is completely relevant.
Thor doesn't have vastly superior feats to tanking aircraft bullets, not even close.
Originally posted by h1a8
Now you are completely ignoring my argument. Why should Jessica be bulletproof? The same reason Diana should be. They can exert tremendous pressures with their flesh without any damage. Isn't this the argument why Thor should be bulletproof? Because of his other feats right? You are creating a double standard.Jessica can casually break steel locks and chains. Do you know the tensile strength of such? Those extreme tonnage of pressure on her yet bullets go through her as easily as humans?
WW is extremely relevant to the thread. Why? Because you used a particular rule as if it's always true. It isn't, as I gave a counter example.
Using counter examples for other characters is completely relevant.
Thor doesn't have vastly superior feats to tanking aircraft bullets, not even close.
Loki is bulletproof. Sif also seemed bulletproof. So it follows that Thor is bullet proof. Especially when he is able to match Hulk who is also shown to be bullet proof.
None of the Amazons were showed to be bullet proof, so there's no reason to think Diana is bullet proof. Plus, we specifically see her get wounded while fighting WW1 soldiers.
JJ has no equivalent to base off from plus she's also been wounded before.
