Originally posted by McP
^
Why?
You know you can quote right?
But anyway, reason being...contradictions. Like...big ones. The characters that TCW introduced cannot be within Legends, as it really messes up the timeline outside of TCW of where they were when in TCW they were pretty much with the main SW crew nearly the entire time.
There's also the point of when TCW starts, which really screws the timeline compared to how it was before, so none of the events really done previously can happen at the same time.
Grevious is really different, there's no real way to justify his TCW being the same as what he's shown in the Micro series or the novels or the comics pre-dating the show.
Aurra Sing is another example, in Canon she's apparently just a bounty hunter, she isn't a former Jedi like she was previously.
Nightsisters being another, as they are all apparently darksiders in Canon...which not all of them were in Legends and they were all destroyed from what I recall in Canon so another reason.
Mandalorians being pacifists with Jango being dubbed a non-Mandalorian and all that noise.
I'm sure there's more but yeah, that's it really.
A monkey wrench was kinda thrown into everything when TCW came along, I won't say before it didn't have problems, but TCW seems like the bigger fish. It all works when dealing with Canon only, but Legends is a whole other thing.
Smaller/side things can fit however, just not the big obvious things.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
You know you can quote right?
Well, to be fair, there are similar defferences in old CW. It doesn't seem to has as many contradictions as TCW mostly because CW is much shorter. But there is some BS like Barris builid her lightsaber during the Clone Wars. And, obviously, the whole season two. In contradicts LoE in many ways, and I think ROTS novel makes it clear (as highest source of Legend's canon as I remember) that LoE's version is more acurate. LoE also somehow retcons that duel on Hypori.
Anyway, I have your point, which I agree with.
And I could argue Grievous though.
Originally posted by McP
I know.Well, to be fair, there are similar defferences in old CW. It doesn't seem to has as many contradictions as TCW mostly because CW is much shorter. But there is some BS like Barris builid her lightsaber during the Clone Wars. And, obviously, the whole season two. In contradicts LoE in many ways, and I think ROTS novel makes it clear (as highest source of Legend's canon as I remember) that LoE's version is more acurate. LoE also somehow retcons that duel on Hypori.
Anyway, I have your point, which I agree with.
And I could argue Grievous though.
As said, pre-TCW wasn't perfect but TCW really throws everything for a loop. It works fine for Canon only though as a whole.
Plus it's not like there isn't Legends material that basically covers the whole Clone Wars. Why do we need TCW for it if the material is already there for Legends? That's a big slap in the face to those who worked on all that material.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
TCW can't fully be Legends though, parts of it can, but wholly it cannot.
It is though. Just as much as the Lucas films are.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
As said, pre-TCW wasn't perfect but TCW really throws everything for a loop. It works fine for Canon only though as a whole.
The contradiction was that Legends EU always took TCW as part of Legends Canon, hence The Ones being a big part of Legends.
However TCW, much like the movies, always contradicted the EU of the time without hesitation.
However neither Legends EU or TCW has Greivous beating anyone in Mauls caliber. Legends Grievous is a beast, but hes not taking one of the deadliest and highly trained Sith in the history of the Sith Order.
Originally posted by Lumine
https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/2q1zra/respect_general_grievous/
Fine, but that material suck a little bit. Lets start with author's double standards:
1. He choosed to use a CW's version of Hypori battle instead of LoE's, when Grievous' victory doesn't seem to be as great:
"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters." He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - a Makashi flourish. "Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"
That quote strongly implys, that Grievous did not meet anyone of Council's caliber on Hypori. It's either retconing Hypori battle or confirms that Ki-Adi and Shaak Ti were that tired, that they could not be consider as Council's caliber warriors.
*In some versions of LoE Dooku lists Shaak Ti instead of Cin Drallig.
2. He choosed to use CW's version of Palpatine's kidnaping, when Grievous stomped Shaak Ti, while they haven't met in LoE.
3. He choosed to use LoE, when it was stated that Count Dooku was sometimes hard-pressed by Grievous, but forgot his favourite CW show, where Grievous was stomped by Dooku.
4. He used LoE version for Grievous duel with Mace, but again forgot his CW show, where Mace stomped Grievous with Force crush.
Awful, pathetic double standard.
And, most of those walls of text from ROTS novel are irrelevant, since most of them are just hyperbolic. You have to determine Grievous' speed by compare his speed with his enemies speed. And in that way, Grievous is not faster then most of top Jedi Masters. Or, assuming that he is, he's far inferior technically, that they can still comptete and even gaining an advantage.
Indeed, in Lgends Grievous stomped Adi Gallia. But it was one of those showings, where he did that exactly in that way that Dooku demanded - by having intimidation, fear and surprise on his side. He actually surprised Gallia with his four arms and due to that was able to kill her.
He also defeated Ventress and Durge, for the same reason - they had no idea, what they were dealing. Fear, intimidation and surprise again. But it should be noted, that at the end, Ventress managed to temporary gain the upper hand:
Anyway, I don't want to lowball Grievous at all. In fact, there was a kind of retcon of many sources during a years. Either Count Dooku or Mace Windu aren't as strong as they were before. Dooku got many embarrassing looses, and Mace... it is strongly suggested, that he's also inferior to his former self. He couldn't stomp Talzin in lighstaber combat the way Sidious did when she was in Dooku's body - and was confirmed to be inferior to him. He also couldn't find an advantage over Maul in their brief fight (he had also show an inferior perception to that of Maul's, since he was unable to dodge that explosion from rocket and lost conscious for a little while (and all of that was with Ayla's support on his side). Mace should be really, really happy that Filoni did not use him more often.
As a big fan of Luceno and LoE, I honestly agree the fact, that Grievous was sometimes able to give Dooku a trouble or stalemate Mace at some point. Even those last episodes of TCW (those unfinished) shows us, that Grievous was able to beat Obi-Wan. And as I remember, those episodes are canon, am I wrong?
Grievous also lands a nice kicks on Obi-Wan and Maul in last season of TCW and in SoD. He indeed is a deadly enemy. But overall, most of his showngs clearly puts him below Obi-Wan or Maul. He might defeat them, but surely not for majority.
Originally posted by McPNice job.
Fine, but that material suck a little bit. Lets start with author's double standards:
1. He choosed to use a CW's version of Hypori battle instead of LoE's, when Grievous' victory doesn't seem to be as great:
"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters." He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - a Makashi flourish. "Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"
That quote strongly implys, that Grievous did not meet anyone of Council's caliber on Hypori. It's either retconing Hypori battle or confirms that Ki-Adi and Shaak Ti were that tired, that they could not be consider as Council's caliber warriors.
*In some versions of LoE Dooku lists Shaak Ti instead of Cin Drallig.
2. He choosed to use CW's version of Palpatine's kidnaping, when Grievous stomped Shaak Ti, while they haven't met in LoE.
3. He choosed to use LoE, when it was stated that Count Dooku was sometimes hard-pressed by Grievous, but forgot his favourite CW show, where Grievous was stomped by Dooku.
4. He used LoE version for Grievous duel with Mace, but again forgot his CW show, where Mace stomped Grievous with Force crush.
Awful, pathetic double standard.And, most of those walls of text from ROTS novel are irrelevant, since most of them are just hyperbolic. You have to determine Grievous' speed by compare his speed with his enemies speed. And in that way, Grievous is not faster then most of top Jedi Masters. Or, assuming that he is, he's far inferior technically, that they can still comptete and even gaining an advantage.
Indeed, in Lgends Grievous stomped Adi Gallia. But it was one of those showings, where he did that exactly in that way that Dooku demanded - by having intimidation, fear and surprise on his side. He actually surprised Gallia with his four arms and due to that was able to kill her.
He also defeated Ventress and Durge, for the same reason - they had no idea, what they were dealing. Fear, intimidation and surprise again. But it should be noted, that at the end, Ventress managed to temporary gain the upper hand:
Anyway, I don't want to lowball Grievous at all. In fact, there was a kind of retcon of many sources during a years. Either Count Dooku or Mace Windu aren't as strong as they were before. Dooku got many embarrassing looses, and Mace... it is strongly suggested, that he's also inferior to his former self. He couldn't stomp Talzin in lighstaber combat the way Sidious did when she was in Dooku's body - and was confirmed to be inferior to him. He also couldn't find an advantage over Maul in their brief fight (he had also show an inferior perception to that of Maul's, since he was unable to dodge that explosion from rocket and lost conscious for a little while (and all of that was with Ayla's support on his side). Mace should be really, really happy that Filoni did not use him more often.
As a big fan of Luceno and LoE, I honestly agree the fact, that Grievous was sometimes able to give Dooku a trouble or stalemate Mace at some point. Even those last episodes of TCW (those unfinished) shows us, that Grievous was able to beat Obi-Wan. And as I remember, those episodes are canon, am I wrong?
Grievous also lands a nice kicks on Obi-Wan and Maul in last season of TCW and in SoD. He indeed is a deadly enemy. But overall, most of his showngs clearly puts him below Obi-Wan or Maul. He might defeat them, but surely not for majority.
Originally posted by McPhttps://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/general-grievous-respect-thread-1620576/
Fine, but that material suck a little bit. Lets start with author's double standards:
1. He choosed to use a CW's version of Hypori battle instead of LoE's, when Grievous' victory doesn't seem to be as great:
"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters." He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - a Makashi flourish. "Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"
That quote strongly implys, that Grievous did not meet anyone of Council's caliber on Hypori. It's either retconing Hypori battle or confirms that Ki-Adi and Shaak Ti were that tired, that they could not be consider as Council's caliber warriors.
*In some versions of LoE Dooku lists Shaak Ti instead of Cin Drallig.
2. He choosed to use CW's version of Palpatine's kidnaping, when Grievous stomped Shaak Ti, while they haven't met in LoE.
3. He choosed to use LoE, when it was stated that Count Dooku was sometimes hard-pressed by Grievous, but forgot his favourite CW show, where Grievous was stomped by Dooku.
4. He used LoE version for Grievous duel with Mace, but again forgot his CW show, where Mace stomped Grievous with Force crush.
Awful, pathetic double standard.And, most of those walls of text from ROTS novel are irrelevant, since most of them are just hyperbolic. You have to determine Grievous' speed by compare his speed with his enemies speed. And in that way, Grievous is not faster then most of top Jedi Masters. Or, assuming that he is, he's far inferior technically, that they can still comptete and even gaining an advantage.
Indeed, in Lgends Grievous stomped Adi Gallia. But it was one of those showings, where he did that exactly in that way that Dooku demanded - by having intimidation, fear and surprise on his side. He actually surprised Gallia with his four arms and due to that was able to kill her.
He also defeated Ventress and Durge, for the same reason - they had no idea, what they were dealing. Fear, intimidation and surprise again. But it should be noted, that at the end, Ventress managed to temporary gain the upper hand:
Anyway, I don't want to lowball Grievous at all. In fact, there was a kind of retcon of many sources during a years. Either Count Dooku or Mace Windu aren't as strong as they were before. Dooku got many embarrassing looses, and Mace... it is strongly suggested, that he's also inferior to his former self. He couldn't stomp Talzin in lighstaber combat the way Sidious did when she was in Dooku's body - and was confirmed to be inferior to him. He also couldn't find an advantage over Maul in their brief fight (he had also show an inferior perception to that of Maul's, since he was unable to dodge that explosion from rocket and lost conscious for a little while (and all of that was with Ayla's support on his side). Mace should be really, really happy that Filoni did not use him more often.
As a big fan of Luceno and LoE, I honestly agree the fact, that Grievous was sometimes able to give Dooku a trouble or stalemate Mace at some point. Even those last episodes of TCW (those unfinished) shows us, that Grievous was able to beat Obi-Wan. And as I remember, those episodes are canon, am I wrong?
Grievous also lands a nice kicks on Obi-Wan and Maul in last season of TCW and in SoD. He indeed is a deadly enemy. But overall, most of his showngs clearly puts him below Obi-Wan or Maul. He might defeat them, but surely not for majority.
Originally posted by Lumine
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/general-grievous-respect-thread-1620576/
You can use my prievous asnwer to this as well. Double standards again. Anything, to just prove, that author's favourite character is a boss. That sad, tbh. And perhaps I'll copy Maul's or Obi-Wan's respect thread here next time, discussion will be more like you like it.
Originally posted by McPI'm not on either side. Just trying to give a link to help those in discussion.
You can use my prievous asnwer to this as well. Double standards again. Anything, to just prove, that author's favourite character is a boss. That sad, tbh. And perhaps I'll copy Maul's or Obi-Wan's respect thread here next time, discussion will be more like you like it.
Originally posted by McPnice counter
Fine, but that material suck a little bit. Lets start with author's double standards:
1. He choosed to use a CW's version of Hypori battle instead of LoE's, when Grievous' victory doesn't seem to be as great:
"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters." He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - a Makashi flourish. "Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"
That quote strongly implys, that Grievous did not meet anyone of Council's caliber on Hypori. It's either retconing Hypori battle or confirms that Ki-Adi and Shaak Ti were that tired, that they could not be consider as Council's caliber warriors.
*In some versions of LoE Dooku lists Shaak Ti instead of Cin Drallig.
2. He choosed to use CW's version of Palpatine's kidnaping, when Grievous stomped Shaak Ti, while they haven't met in LoE.
3. He choosed to use LoE, when it was stated that Count Dooku was sometimes hard-pressed by Grievous, but forgot his favourite CW show, where Grievous was stomped by Dooku.
4. He used LoE version for Grievous duel with Mace, but again forgot his CW show, where Mace stomped Grievous with Force crush.
Awful, pathetic double standard.And, most of those walls of text from ROTS novel are irrelevant, since most of them are just hyperbolic. You have to determine Grievous' speed by compare his speed with his enemies speed. And in that way, Grievous is not faster then most of top Jedi Masters. Or, assuming that he is, he's far inferior technically, that they can still comptete and even gaining an advantage.
Indeed, in Lgends Grievous stomped Adi Gallia. But it was one of those showings, where he did that exactly in that way that Dooku demanded - by having intimidation, fear and surprise on his side. He actually surprised Gallia with his four arms and due to that was able to kill her.
He also defeated Ventress and Durge, for the same reason - they had no idea, what they were dealing. Fear, intimidation and surprise again. But it should be noted, that at the end, Ventress managed to temporary gain the upper hand:
Anyway, I don't want to lowball Grievous at all. In fact, there was a kind of retcon of many sources during a years. Either Count Dooku or Mace Windu aren't as strong as they were before. Dooku got many embarrassing looses, and Mace... it is strongly suggested, that he's also inferior to his former self. He couldn't stomp Talzin in lighstaber combat the way Sidious did when she was in Dooku's body - and was confirmed to be inferior to him. He also couldn't find an advantage over Maul in their brief fight (he had also show an inferior perception to that of Maul's, since he was unable to dodge that explosion from rocket and lost conscious for a little while (and all of that was with Ayla's support on his side). Mace should be really, really happy that Filoni did not use him more often.
As a big fan of Luceno and LoE, I honestly agree the fact, that Grievous was sometimes able to give Dooku a trouble or stalemate Mace at some point. Even those last episodes of TCW (those unfinished) shows us, that Grievous was able to beat Obi-Wan. And as I remember, those episodes are canon, am I wrong?
Grievous also lands a nice kicks on Obi-Wan and Maul in last season of TCW and in SoD. He indeed is a deadly enemy. But overall, most of his showngs clearly puts him below Obi-Wan or Maul. He might defeat them, but surely not for majority.