Originally posted by AncientPowerBecause Yoda's only as powerful as Sheev via knowledge, not raw power:
So even with DE Luke being stronger than Yoda:
That only likely means he's on par with ROTS Sheev, or a little stronger.
Now, the real question is how much does Sheev actually grow after this? Well TFU Sheev had a desperate battle with an inferior to Yoda, in Galen Marek. Indicating that despite 19 years of power growth, it isn't so considerable that Sheev would take Yoda in an easy fight the second time around. ROTJ comes around, and this is where his power does seem to rise considerably. More importantly, DE Sheev is much more powerful than he was in ROTJ.
DE Sheev only defeats this now Yoda+ Luke easily with an enormous nexus amp, but then goes on to get trounced by a much more powerful Luke Skywalker whose potential is being gradually unlocked by Leia.
So where's the middle ground? How much does the nexus effect the first stomp? How much does Luke's unlocked potential effect the reverse stomp? In mid-ground, with no nexus and no potential unlocking? It's a far closer battle either way.
Which means that ROTS Sheev's growth to his prime, might not be as gargantuan as everybody assumes it is. Sure, DE Luke is > ROTS Yoda. But we have reason to think that DE Sheev is significantly but not overwhelming more powerful than DE Luke.
So, where does Exar Kun figure into all of this? Not as powerful as the DE Sheevs or Tenebraes. But not that far behind either. Just my personal insight.
Though Exar Kun > Spirit!Kun > DS Kyp Durron ~ JA Luke > DE Luke is pretty mouthwatering.
1. So Yoda's knowledge makes up for the power gap. What?! Yoda when he duelled Palpatine literally only used Tutaminis and TK. His "superior knowledge" didn't come into play at all which means they must have been close in power. This makes no sense.
2. TFU Sidious struggled with a oneness amped Marek not normal Marek. The power Marek gained when he was amped was astronomical and was stated to "make the dark side of the force look like child's play" to paraphrase the text as I believe it said something of that nature but it's not exact I don't think.
3. Also if you employ this scaling you basically shoot yourself in the foot because if we go by this and that if Marek did indeed "give Sheev a desparate battle" then Sheev just prior to ANH was much more powerful than his TFU self as Vader as of TFU 2 could ragdoll Marek effortlesslyand The Emperor was more powerful than him.
4. Nexus's are greatly overexaggereated and given how easily Sheev won I don't really think off Nexus Luke would have faired much better.
Originally posted by HP Legend
1. So Yoda's knowledge makes up for the power gap. What?! Yoda when he duelled Palpatine literally only used Tutaminis and TK. His "superior knowledge" didn't come into play at all which means they must have been close in power. This makes no sense.
You're literally arguing with the source material, you do realise that?
Originally posted by HP Legend
2. TFU Sidious struggled with a oneness amped Marek not normal Marek. The power Marek gained when he was amped was astronomical and was stated to "make the dark side of the force look like child's play" to paraphrase the text as I believe it said something of that nature but it's not exact I don't think.
He wasn't Oneness amped, lmao. He found clarity, more akin to Malgus. If he was Oneness amped, he'd have stomped Sheev because Oneness literally transforms you into much greater than your own potential. Marek's potential was greater than Sheev's. Plus, he'd be literally transforming into light if he was in Oneness.
Originally posted by HP Legend
3. Also if you employ this scaling you basically shoot yourself in the foot because if we go by this and that if Marek did indeed "give Sheev a desparate battle" then Sheev just prior to ANH was much more powerful than his TFU self as Vader as of TFU 2 could ragdoll Marek effortlessly and The Emperor was more powerful than him.
When will this shit argument die? Read this post, because I'm too lazy to parrot Ant's 9 month old debunk of it:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649895&pagenumber=2#post16507215
Originally posted by HP Legend
4. Nexus's are greatly overexaggereated and given how easily Sheev won I don't really think off Nexus Luke would have faired much better.
Despite his clone's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulnerable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers there was more of an afterthought than an exercise.****
Within Palpatine's lair, and surrounded by the dark side pall that covered the planet, Luke could not stand against the Emperor.
- Dark Empire Handbook
Palpatine's victory is directly attributed to the nexus.
Originally posted by AncientPower
You're literally arguing with the source material, you do realise that?He wasn't Oneness amped, lmao. He found clarity, more akin to Malgus. If he was Oneness amped, he'd have stomped Sheev because Oneness literally transforms you into much greater than your own potential. Marek's potential was greater than Sheev's. Plus, he'd be literally transforming into light if he was in Oneness.
When will this shit argument die? Read this post, because I'm too lazy to parrot Ant's 9 month old debunk of it:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649895&pagenumber=2#post16507215
Palpatine's victory is directly attributed to the nexus.
1. Are you seriously arguing with the source material right now which later in your post you accused me of doing? LMAO. Malgus gaining clarity and recieving a rage amp is not the same as what happened with Marek.
Marek is literally stated to have embraced the force utterly:
Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child.
-The Force Unleashed
His power was such that it made his efforts with the dark side of the force look like those of a child indicaating a massive power increase which puts him astronomically above normal Galen Marek. If anything it's a great feat for Sheev that he held off someone as powerful as Marek while oneness amped.
Besides even if you were to conclude he was not oneness amped then my point would still stand because as I've proven Marek was massively more powerful than his normal self.
2. Ant's debunk proves nothing. Marek may have been exhausted but the problem with Ant's point is Marek was rage amped which should cancel out all negative conditions he was dealing with prior to the amp. In fact there are numerous instances of rage amps negating fatigue in Star Wars.
He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her. "Juno!" A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.
--The Force Unleashed II
3. I love how you horrendously misinterpret that quote. Sheev stomping Luke was atributed to the nexus not him beating Luke. Besides there is legitimately no dark side nexus which would allow you to stomp someone you would lose to or be given a fight by. In fact given how strong Sheev was by that point I really don't think the nexus could have amped him that much.
I also love your hilarious double standards when talking about this. I've seen you claim that nexus's wouldn't assist Valk too much and that some of his feats are still appliable despite him being on a nexus yet you fail to do the same with Sheev when he is canonically more powerful than Valk.
LMAO.
Read "2) RE: STARKILLER SCALING."
- or -
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php threadid=649895&pagenumber=7#post16541521
Read "TOO TIRED TO . . . FAIL?," which stretches down into the second post.
I've already read your CaV post against Az and nothing in there convinced me Vader wasn't capable of ragdolling a rage amped Starkiller. While it's true Starkiller wasn't amped for the whole fight the start is enough to at least show parity. The novelization makes it obvious Starkiller was angry at the start of the fight and this is echoed by Starkiller howling with rage when he attacks Vader. Vader then proceeds to ragdoll him and throw with apparant ease and is noted to be too powerful. This shows that Vader is comparable to a rage amped Starkiller or at the very worst slightly inferior and therefore seen as The Emperor is quite far above Vader basic logic tells us he's far more powerful than a rage amped Starkiller who at worst Vader is slightly inferior to. Therefore this validates my claim which is that The Emperor is masses more powerful as of ANH which was really all I was trying to prove. I'm not trying to prove Vader is masses more powerful than rage amped Marek just comparable to him which therefore places Sheev leagues above rage amped Marek which again supports my response to AP.
Distinguishing Sith Rage (Force Rage, Dark Rage or whatever sourcebook names it), a dedicated Sith technique, from the common usage of negative emotions to fuel their combat prowess - a basic modus operandi of the Sith - is not a simple task. Ant adressed that flawlessly, IMO.
Too many times arguments enveloping supposed "amps" are brought up just because certain character is said to be angry or furious.
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Distinguishing Sith Rage (Force Rage, Dark Rage or whatever sourcebook names it), a dedicated Sith technique, from the common usage of negative emotions to fuel their combat prowess - a basic modus operandi of the Sith - is not a simple task. Ant adressed that flawlessly, IMO.Too many times arguments enveloping supposed "amps" are brought up just because certain character is said to be angry or furious.
It's posts like these that make me wish I didn't listen Ant's request to drop that debate, lol.
Can you explain what part of Ant's argument you found convincing?
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Distinguishing Sith Rage (Force Rage, Dark Rage or whatever sourcebook names it), a dedicated Sith technique, from the common usage of negative emotions to fuel their combat prowess - a basic modus operandi of the Sith - is not a simple task. Ant adressed that flawlessly, IMO.Too many times arguments enveloping supposed "amps" are brought up just because certain character is said to be angry or furious.
Except this instance was amplification. He literally howls with fury and is stated to attack Vader with "all his rage and all his grief". This sounds an awful lot like a rage amp.
Originally posted by HP Legend
Except this instance was amplification. He literally howls with fury and is stated to attack Vader with "all his rage and all his grief" to paraphrase. This sounds an awful lot like a rage amp.
Yeah, the mental gymnastics to argue that he wasn't being amped because he didn't consciously use a technique in an RPG sourcebook (and TPM Obi Wan was? RotJ Luke was? Seriously?) are kind of ridiculous at this point, and were clearly ad hoc arguments to fit the evidence to a particular conclusion that some people want.
Originally posted by HP Legend
Except this instance was amplification. He literally howls with fury and is stated to attack Vader with "all his rage and all his grief". This sounds an awful lot like a rage amp.
Why it was necessarily an amplification? By how much? For how long? Nowhere it's stated that the output of these feelings substantially changed Starkiller's combat prowess. And I didn't even delve into the fact that Starkiller was talking and experiencing visions in the meantime. So, even if, somehow, he did experience an unquantifiable "amp" that was ignored by the literature, there's little to support it lasted beyond the couple of blows that Vader "only just" intercepted.
Of course, assuming Starkiller was amped just because of that passage would also implicate on Vader being amped after Starkiller touched on subject of the Resistance: the literature even goes to the point to affirm "he had it a very deep nerve.", and Vader's prowess increases after that mention.
So, honestly, I don't understand why you are so zealous with this contention, in particular.