Darth Malak vs Darth Sidious

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Why it was necessarily an amplification?

Because that's a central theme of Star Wars. The only counterexample I can think of is Anakin on Mustafar - but 99% of the other evidence supports the idea that rage = amp.

By how much? For how long?

Given that at the end he's super-lightning-attacking an unshielded Vader for like 30 seconds, and then Vader isn't noticeably injured, it's safe to say that it's enough to draw a meaningful line of scaling between the two in RotJ Vader's favor, especially given that we know the

Spoiler:
entire fight was just a test for the Dark Apprentice.

And I didn't even delve into the fact that Starkiller was talking and experiencing visions in the meantime. So, even if, somehow, he did experience an unquantifiable "amp" that was ignored by the literature, there's little to support it lasted beyond the couple of blows that Vader "only just" intercepted.

You're ignoring the multiple times where Vader ragdolls Starkiller immediately after Starkiller's rage.

Of course, assuming Starkiller was amped just because of that passage would also implicate on Vader being amped after Starkiller touched on subject of the Resistance: the literature even goes to the point to affirm "he had it a very deep nerve.", and Vader's prowess increases after that mention.

What does that have to do with the specific instances of Vader ragdolling Starkiller?

Let me ask you: if Starkiller >>> Vader, why does Vader keep goading Starkiller throughout the fight into using his anger to destroy him, even before they were outside where the Dark Apprentice could intervene? Is he suicidal or something?

BTW, your "the literature doesn't cite it as a factor" point would fail to explain why we should draw Starkiller's fatigue to explain why "Vader is too powerful. He tosses [him] aside like a ragdoll".

LMAO. I’ll take this from here, TW.

kinda backhanded @TW lol

@Ell

I don't have the TUF book with me, I'm merely referring to the passage discussed above, at beginning of chapter 25.

This "amp" in particular doesn't seem to go past the part where he stopped to talk, after Vader stumbled backwards.

On the subject of the amplification, just because it's recurring it doesn't necessarily make it mandatory, especially considering no clarification was given about Starkiller's performance - and focusing negative emotions is the bread and butter of Sith doctrine.

On the other subjects, I don't have the book, so I can't possibly comment. My point was to address the "all his rage, all his grief" part.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
kinda backhanded @TW lol

Originally posted by HP Legend
I've already read your CaV post against Az and nothing in there convinced me Vader wasn't capable of ragdolling a rage amped Starkiller.

Sad!

While it's true Starkiller wasn't amped for the whole fight the start is enough to at least show parity.

Except if he was only amped for the start of the fight, then he would have been unfathomably weakened for the rest of the fight, given that's how Force rage works. Note that that is NOT according to RPG sourcebooks but rather The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

This, of course, creates a laughable contradiction if we believe what you're saying, as it means Vader can ragdoll an empowered Starkiller yet can't handle a brink-of-death Starkiller. Remember, Vader almost died to a near-dead Starkiller in the cloning facility tower and only survived because Starkiller was hit with a Force vision the same moment - and the Dark Apprentice wasn't even present there.

The novelization makes it obvious Starkiller was angry at the start of the fight and this is echoed by Starkiller howling with rage when he attacks Vader. Vader then proceeds to ragdoll him and throw with apparant ease and is noted to be too powerful. This shows that Vader is comparable to a rage amped Starkiller or at the very worst slightly inferior and therefore seen as The Emperor is quite far above Vader basic logic tells us he's far more powerful than a rage amped Starkiller who at worst Vader is slightly inferior to.

Except being angry doesn't mean Force rage, unless you're ready to argue characters like Revan, Maul, Sion, Malgus, Wrath, Nox, etc. fight in a constant, never-ending state of Force rage. Force rage isn't just being enraged - it's a total immersion into the dark side per literally every source describing it.

Therefore this validates my claim which is that The Emperor is masses more powerful as of ANH which was really all I was trying to prove. I'm not trying to prove Vader is masses more powerful than rage amped Marek just comparable to him which therefore places Sheev leagues above rage amped Marek which again supports my response to AP.

We know the Emperor is unfathomably stronger than Vader via other reasons, such as Vader thinking that the Emperor wouldn't even feel threatened by the prospect of fighting him and Luke combined.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Why it was necessarily an amplification? By how much? For how long? Nowhere it's stated that the output of these feelings substantially changed Starkiller's combat prowess. And I didn't even delve into the fact that Starkiller was talking and experiencing visions in the meantime. So, even if, somehow, he did experience an unquantifiable "amp" that was ignored by the literature, there's little to support it lasted beyond the couple of blows that Vader "only just" intercepted.

Of course, assuming Starkiller was amped just because of that passage would also implicate on Vader being amped after Starkiller touched on subject of the Resistance: the literature even goes to the point to affirm "he had it a very deep nerve.", and Vader's prowess increases after that mention.

So, honestly, I don't understand why you are so zealous with this contention, in particular.

1. The text literally notes he was using these feelings to attack Vader so I really don't see how it can't be an amp.

2. The amp didn't last for long but in the time it did last Starkiller was grabbed by Vader and thrown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w0rv08AD3c

(1:11) to (1:30)

3. The next part of your post isn't relevant so I don't really feel the need to address it. I pretty much agree Starkiller was only amped at the start.

While Starkiller was only amped for a few brief seconds there is enough to prove Vader is comparable to him. Vader blocks his strikes, breaks his force shiled, ragdolls him and was staed to be too powerful for Marek. Vader is at worst marginally inferior to a rage amped Marek.

I'll deal with your post later Ant.

@HP Legend

1- So, Maul "hate filled blows" were amped blows as well? Because Maul is clearly using his feelings in the quote above.

2- I managed to check the beginning of Chapter 25 until the part Starkiller muses about Vader controlling "the high ground" and, being generous, the only part where his blows could be interpretated as amped are the couple blows he unleashes until Vader stumbles backwards and then he breaks the engagement to check Juno and talk with Vader.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
@HP Legend

1- So, Maul "hate filled blows" were amped blows as well? Because Maul is clearly using his feelings in the quote above.

2- I managed to check the beginning of Chapter 25 until the part Starkiller muses about Vader controlling "the high ground" and, being generous, the only part where his blows could be interpretated as amped are the couple blows he unleashes until Vader stumbles backwards and then he breaks the engagement to check Juno and talk with Vader.

1. LMAO. They are not the same thing. The quote on Starkiller is considerably more akin to a rage amp.

As a reminder:

"He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her. "Juno!" A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward."
--The Force Unleashed II

I've underlined the relvant part for you. Starkiller was stated to be attacking with all of his strength, rage and grief. Now let's look at the dictionary definition of all because you seem to be in need of an explanation for the word considering you so persistantly claim he was not rage amped.

According to Google all when used in this specific circumstance means:

"Completely"

Galen completely submerged himself in rage which should logically amp him considering he was using it to fuel his attacks and using the full extent of his rage on Vader. He attacked Vader with the absolute complete force of his rage and grief proving he was indeed amped.

Also the fact is I really don't see how this isn't an amp. Starkiller though Juno was killed and she was the one thing he cared for which should logically amp him considerably considering character deaths amping someone has been shown many times in Star Wars.

2. You're correct which I literally said in my last post. That was the only time in the fight where Stakiller was rage amped.

And of course as a reminder Vader ragdolled him in this state:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w0rv08AD3c

(1:11) to (1:30)

Originally posted by Jaggarath

Sad!

Except if he was only amped for the start of the fight, then he would have been unfathomably weakened for the rest of the fight, given that's how Force rage works. Note that that is NOT according to RPG sourcebooks but rather The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

This, of course, creates a laughable contradiction if we believe what you're saying, as it means Vader can ragdoll an empowered Starkiller yet can't handle a brink-of-death Starkiller. Remember, Vader almost died to a near-dead Starkiller in the cloning facility tower and only survived because Starkiller was hit with a Force vision the same moment - and the Dark Apprentice wasn't even present there.

Except being angry doesn't mean Force rage, unless you're ready to argue characters like Revan, Maul, Sion, Malgus, Wrath, Nox, etc. fight in a constant, never-ending state of Force rage. Force rage isn't just being enraged - it's a total immersion into the dark side per literally every source describing it.

We know the Emperor is unfathomably stronger than Vader via other reasons, such as Vader thinking that the Emperor wouldn't even feel threatened by the prospect of fighting him and Luke combined.

1. Don't get me wrong your post was excellent but this point in my opinion was quite weak. You didn't manage to prove to me he wasn't enraged.

2. Vader was cheapshotted by Starkiller both times after kicking his ass IIRC. Could you post quotes of the full fight if you have them because I don't have the novel as when I read it I got it from my local library? Regardless from what I could see from your CaV post and the quotes you posted there Vader was distracted and weakened by his prosthetics.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike. Juno lying limp in his arms. The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power. Juno-dead. He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her? The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

-The Force Unleashed 2

3. Addressed in my response to TenebrousWay.

4. My point wasn't to prove The Emperor was vastly stronger than Vader but to prove he was vastly morer powerful of TFU 2 and ANH than he was as of TFU. For this entire debate all I've been trying to do is highlight Palpatine's growth.

Sorry if I sounded a little condescending in some of my posts here BTW. I unfortunatley am not able to edit to fix the wording.
🙁

Originally posted by HP Legend
2. Vader was cheapshotted by Starkiller both times after kicking his ass IIRC.

The text constantly has them trading blows as near-equals, as I highlighted in red. Thus, the text indicates a level of parity between Vader and an extremely weakened version of Starkiller, unless you want to go Andy's unsubstantiated route that Vader held back (which would be a completely different discussion, although you seem not to subscribe to it anyway). Note that Starkiller's exhaustion would only be doubled if we consider your Force rage argument as true, given how Force users coming out of Force rage have an astronomical drop in power.

If you refer to the blue text, Starkiller's victory seems fair play. He strikes Vader with Force lightning, which goes through his insulated armor and any Force barrier. Starkiller then goes to strike him down, but is blocked by a vision.

Could you post quotes of the full fight if you have them because I don't have the novel as when I read it I got it from my local library?

(Fight I):

Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again.

Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love.

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity.They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

---

(Fight II):

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

--- --- ---

As for your "all his rage" argument, you're just not getting it. It's not just using your rage in battle; after all, it's not like Sith Lords don't strike with all their rage - Malgus isn't pulling his punches. Force rage is a *specific* Force application where Starkiller would have to openly embrace the dark side and go into a berserker state of dark side emotion. Starkiller does *not* do that, unless you think Starkiller only goes into Force rage for a single blow then stops. Note that Vader: The Ultimate Guide emphasizes how Luke's restraint against Vader and the Emperor after "drinking deeply into the dark side is "unprecedented", yet you're claiming Starkiller pulled it off also with no issue and little commentary.

Ultimately though, your argument is simply inconsistent with the events that take place before and after the "all his rage" incident, which places a weakened Starkiller, not an empowered Starkiller, alongside Vader. The most plausible, consistent interpretation is that Starkiller is angry and striking Vader, not that he's somehow temporarily surmounting all his exhaustions for a single strike then going back to below-normal levels.

--- --- ---

Also, if you want to see actual instances of Force rage to contrast what Starkiller did:

(Darth Maul):

Maul realized his opponents had not really been the assassin droids. He thought of all the punishment he had endured over the past month, and then of the unending punishments of his entire life. He thought of his true opponent, the unseen adversary, chosen by Sidious to become a Sith Lord. Maul felt robbed of his past and future. And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.

No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master. Glaring at Sidious, Maul saw the true face of his enemy.

Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"

Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought,ÿI'm going to kill him.

Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"

Yes," Maul grunted.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand.

---

When Maul goes into, the text emphasizes the surge in power but also his significant weakener thereafter. TFU doesn't do either for Starkiller. Moreover, when Jacen Solo goes into Force rage, he literally falls unconscious after he does it. Luke's basically the exception to the rule, which, as previously noted, is something sources stress. Starkiller isn't affected *at all* when he moves out of Force rage, nor does his immersion into Force rage seem to have any affect on his mind whatsoever. Your argument just ... doesn't work, lol.

Might not get back to this. It really depends on whether I have the energy to or not. If I do respond it'll be tomorrow or Sunday.

It seems long, but most of it is just quoting. Just a couple sentences of actual text.

Looked through it. Might actually get back to this but it depends on whether I have the time over the weekend. I'll see what I can do.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
The text constantly has them trading blows as near-equals, as I highlighted in red. Thus, the text indicates a level of parity between Vader and an extremely weakened version of Starkiller, unless you want to go Andy's unsubstantiated route that Vader held back (which would be a completely different discussion, although you seem not to subscribe to it anyway). Note that Starkiller's exhaustion would only be doubled if we consider your Force rage argument as true, given how Force users coming out of Force rage have an astronomical drop in power.

If you refer to the blue text, Starkiller's victory seems fair play. He strikes Vader with Force lightning, which goes through his insulated armor and any Force barrier. Starkiller then goes to strike him down, but is blocked by a vision.

(Fight I):

Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again.

Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love.

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity.They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

---

(Fight II):

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

--- --- ---

As for your "all his rage" argument, you're just not getting it. It's not just using your rage in battle; after all, it's not like Sith Lords don't strike with all their rage - Malgus isn't pulling his punches. Force rage is a *specific* Force application where Starkiller would have to openly embrace the dark side and go into a berserker state of dark side emotion. Starkiller does *not* do that, unless you think Starkiller only goes into Force rage for a single blow then stops. Note that Vader: The Ultimate Guide emphasizes how Luke's restraint against Vader and the Emperor after "drinking deeply into the dark side is "unprecedented", yet you're claiming Starkiller pulled it off also with no issue and little commentary.

Ultimately though, your argument is simply inconsistent with the events that take place before and after the "all his rage" incident, which places a weakened Starkiller, not an empowered Starkiller, alongside Vader. The most plausible, consistent interpretation is that Starkiller is angry and striking Vader, not that he's somehow temporarily surmounting all his exhaustions for a single strike then going back to below-normal levels.

--- --- ---

Also, if you want to see actual instances of Force rage to contrast what Starkiller did:

(Darth Maul):

Maul realized his opponents had not really been the assassin droids. He thought of all the punishment he had endured over the past month, and then of the unending punishments of his entire life. He thought of his true opponent, the unseen adversary, chosen by Sidious to become a Sith Lord. Maul felt robbed of his past and future. And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.

No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master. Glaring at Sidious, Maul saw the true face of his enemy.

Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"

Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought,ÿI'm going to kill him.

Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"

Yes," Maul grunted.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand.

---

When Maul goes into, the text emphasizes the surge in power but also his significant weakener thereafter. TFU doesn't do either for Starkiller. Moreover, when Jacen Solo goes into Force rage, he literally falls unconscious after he does it. Luke's basically the exception to the rule, which, as previously noted, is something sources stress. Starkiller isn't affected *at all* when he moves out of Force rage, nor does his immersion into Force rage seem to have any affect on his mind whatsoever. Your argument just ... doesn't work, lol.

1. No I don't subsribe to the fact that Vader was holding back.

2. The first part of your argument would be fine if it wasn't a blatant strawmann. Vader was not beaten by an exhausted Starkiller LMAO. The part you completely missed when you made this argument is unironically shown in the quotes you provided.

"Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now."

-The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

Now as you can see from the above quote it very clearly is insinuating that Vader has improved and is now a match for a more powerful version of Starkiller. Now if we go by your logic and say Starkiller was astronomically weakened then why does the text say that Vader had learned to deal with Starkiller? How can Vader have learned to deal with Starkiller when he is literally equaling an exhausted version?

Now we have some of the general points in the novel and basically the entire point of it to back up my previous point. The novel goes to great lengths to show that the only reason Starkiller is still standing is because of Juno and because he cares for her. These entire segments of Starkiller being stated to be exhausted are meant to show how his love for Juno can make him recover.

After going 13 days without food his love for Juno is literally enough to make him feel stronger than ever:

"Starkiller orbited Cato Neimoidia once, safe in Darth Vader's TIE fighter, and simply stared.He had been down a pit on Kamino for thirteen days, and in Vader's clutches for what felt like a lifetime.He had forgotten what sunlight looked like. He had forgotten what it felt like to be a free agent. There was so much he had forgotten, and so much that was slowly coming back to him. Juno. She felt strangely close, even though he had no reason to suspect that she was nearby. In his mind, she was coming clearer with every hour. He couldn't believe that she had almost slipped away. Oh, he understood it well enough. He knew all about Darth Vader's mind games and the power of the dark side. He had lived with it, and prospered from that, too, in his original lifetime. He could exert his will over others in order to get what he wanted, but he didn't doubt that... didn't doubt that Vader had almost succeeded in driving every last memory of the woman Starkiller had loved from his mind. Now she was back, and it seemed incomprehensible to him that she had ever gone away. Even when he had lost everything in his former life, when every last hope of victory had been taken from him, he had thought of her. His demise had meant nothing compared with the knowledge that she had escaped safely from the Emperor's deadly space station. Then... death. And revival. And forgetting, powerlessness, and fear. But now he was back. Nothing could stand between him and Juno. Not for long, anyway. With her ahead of him, leading him on, he felt stronger than ever."

-The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

Then there is this quote in his fight with Vader:

"The only emotion he would give in to was love."

-The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

You can say all you want that he was exhausted but canon simply does not agree with you.

(Continued Below)

The fight specifically notes how Vader had improved and was now a match for Starkiller unlike in his last fight where after Starkiller gained clarity and found out he didn't need to hate to beat Vader he won.

Then there is the fact that exhaustion in the novelization is used to prove how his love for Juno can stop anything in his path not to make excuses for his fight against Vader. The text potrays the two as equals and your exhaustion fallacy simply isn't supported by the texts which you use as the baseline for your argument.

2. Vader losing the fight was a cheapshot lol. As you yourself have admitted Vader was equal to Starkiller per the text itself. Then you have the fact that he tanks a far greater barrage of lightning later from Starkiller for a full 30 seconds. Starkiller getting one hit on Vader which makes use of the weakness of his suit does not prove his superiority as a force user. Vader basically tanked that blast and only nearly lost because of the weakness of his suit not because Starkiller was a better force user or duellist in fact as I mentioned the text notes the opposite.

3. Starkiller's exhaustion being doubled as of the second fight matters very little as he is still constantly dwelling on Juno in their second fight which as mentioned basically dismisses the exhaustion as thinking of Juno gives him strength.

4. Your entire argument is utterly baseless. You're basically assuming that because the text does not go into specifics about the rage amp that it was not there. Considering Boba Fett kidnapping Juno was enough to send Starkiller into a Force Rage I really don't see how Starkiller wouldn't get a rage amp here. Especially since he was stated to be using all his rage as already mentioned which should realistically mean he was rage amped considering Maul as you posted was rage amped when an overwhelming amount of rage fuelled him. The standard requirement for a rage amp is basically an abnormal amount of rage which was shown in the text here.

Conclusion:

You haven't really provided a reason as to why Marek wouldn't be rage amped besides the fact that the text doesn't specifically note it which is quite weak compared to the plethora of evidence which supports otherwise. And you "he was exhausted" argument is quite disingenuous and the text specifically proves otherwise.

I'm done here.

Where is it stated Starkiller was exhausted for that final boss fight with Vader?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Where is it stated Starkiller was exhausted for that final boss fight with Vader?

Before the fight although unfortunately I can't provide the quote as I don't actually own a copy of the book.

Not that it matters considering Starkiller was amped back to his normal levels anyway as proven in my post.