Starkiller vs Vader

Started by Beelzebub9 pages
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I dont have my copy in me so Can you post the entire passage please, so I can see when that takes place I.e. During or before the Vader fight.

His clones screamed as he cut them down.

It quickly became apparent that the first to rush in were the wildest and weakest both. In their eagerness to do battle, they didn't stop to plan their strategies. What they possessed in speed, they lacked in forethought. He was armed and they were not, so for being headstrong beyond all reason these brutish beings paid the ultimate price.

The next wave either learned from the fate of the first or had enough innate caution to stand back a moment and observe the way he fought. They came at him from all sides, using telekinesis to try to knock him off balance on the blood-slicked floor. He was too fast for them, leaping over their heads and attacking from be- hind, slashing at their overdeveloped shoulders and hunched backs without remorse.

Moving out of the center of the ring of converging clones brought him into contact with the third wave, the most cunning he had encountered so far. Long-armed and long-fingered, with blackened, blistering skin, these employed lightning when attacking him, and then by devious means. They would wait until he was distracted and attack him from behind, or come at him from three directions at once, or even use one of their fellow clones as an impromptu conductor. Deadly currents crackled and sparkled around him, kept barely at bay by the judicious application of a Force shield. Sometimes a lucky strike caused him pain, but he fought through it, found the source, and put the attack quickly to an end.

From above came the sound of lightsabers activating, and he braced himself for another, more dangerous onslaught. These, the most normal looking of all the clones, spun, slashed, hacked, and stabbed at him from all sides, one-handed, two-handed, with all possible variations of lightsaber combat styles. Red-eyed and hate- filled, they fought each other, too, and the ones who had come before. There were no allies, just a sea of individuals.

And yet... Confidence, determination, intelligence, and cunning-combined with physical strength and agility-the clones possessed every attribute he did, in greater or lesser degrees. He saw in their faces the same confusion he felt. They were all clones, so who was he to stand out from among them? What special qualities set him apart?

Who was Starkiller, in this mass of faces and bodies?

A desperate rage built up inside him. What if what he felt was nothing but a lingering imprint left behind by the first Starkiller? Did he cling to his feelings with all the more desperation because deep down he knew they were counterfeit? "The memories of a dead man, " Vader had called them, blaming them for the torment and confusion he had felt. "They will fade, " Vader had promised, but they had not. Did the other clones experience the same hopes and fears? Were their experiences any less worthy than his?

"Destroy what he created... hate what he loved... he strong... " That was the command Vader had given him, on threat of death. But who was the deliverer of that death? Wasn't he the one delivering to the clones the very fate that he had feared? Had they all been given the same ultimatum?

"You will receive the same treatment as the others. "

Death by lightsaber, at his own hand. Perhaps this macabre free-for-all was Vader's way of weeding out the imperfect stock. The last one left standing would be considered the perfect Starkiller, the one who would rake his place at Vader's side. Perhaps that was his plan.

"You have faced your final test, " Vader had told a victorious version of himself in the vision he had received on the Salvation. Maybe the vision he had received on Dagobah had warned him of a very real trial, nor the metaphorical one he had imagined it to be.

The dark side awaited his call. But if this was his final test, then he would not fail. There was too much riding on it. If he gave in to temptation and became Darth Vader's apprentice once more, then it was clear from the vision that Juno would die. She was the whole reason he had escaped, and then returned. He would not turn his back on that, even to survive.

He sought strength from within himself, and pushed outward with all his might. Clones went flying. The empty rubes from which they had emerged shattered into millions of pieces. Platforms buckled and fell with reverberant crashes. The interior of the cloning tower rang as though struck with a giant hammer. Every muscle in his body shook with the effort of it.

The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend.

The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it.

The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.

Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over.

They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left-of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.

"Why me?" he asked the silent cloning tower.

"Search your feelings, " Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. "The answer lies within you. "

Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did?

He remembered:

"How long this time?"

"Thirteen days. Impressive. "

And he remembered:

" The Force gives me all I need. "

"The Force?"

"The dark side. I mean. "

Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent-bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat.

He didn't remember the early days of his apprenticeship, when the memories of his parents had been strong and the young boy he had once been resisted Vader's absolute authority, but he was sure the battle had been even then, psychological. The battle would never cease until one of them won.

Was this what it was like to be a Sith? Forever at war with one's own Master?

"Your training made me strong enough to escape you, " he said, "not obey you. "

"Yet here you are. " Darth Vader's words fell on him like heavy weights. "My most deadly creation. "

"You lie!" Starkiller jumped up to the next platform, passion stirring him to action. "You never wanted this. You can't have. Once Juno has been rescued, your facility will be destroyed. You with it, if there's any justice. "

"There is no justice, " said Darth Vader, watching him ascend. "Only power. "

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged.

So many typos in my post. I hate that KMC doesn't allow you to edit after a certain period of time.

Originally posted by HP Legend
So many typos in my post. I hate that KMC doesn't allow you to edit after a certain period of time.

Same.

^ Thanks for the passage.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Based on what? Galen dancing around his defences? That's just Galen being his equal. Give me one instance of Galen's speed being a problem. Heck give me a quote that insinuates that. Nothing in the text does besides Galen catching Vader off guard which Vader did to Galen as well. And yes I acknowledge the context to that so the counter wasn't needed. I'll skip over it.

The quote that states Vader was being pushed to his limits trying to fend Galen off is what insinuates that...

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. What you highlighted shows Galen was able to defend against Vader not push his offensive to it's absolute limits.

"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits." - The Force Unleashed

Originally posted by HP Legend
2. I cited the passage to show Vader fought well and was a relative equal to Galen.

How Vader fought, whether "brilliantly" or "poorly" doesn't tell us how he held up against a particular opponent. Someone like Kas'im likely fought technically perfectly against PoD Bane but he still was being driven back because Bane was simply stronger, faster and more powerful.

Originally posted by HP Legend
The passage literally said here The Dark Side was what he needed to overwhelm his master and that he's resisting it and trying to find a better way to finish the fight.

No, it says that using the Darkside is ONE way to finish the job that he is seeking a better one because he does not wish to strike Vader down in anger. Once he manages to LET GO of his hatred for Vader he immediately overcomes him.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Based on what?

Based on the quote stating exactly that. I've cited it a few times now, you should be able to find it by scrolling up a bit.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Let me cite you the first part of the fight before Galen's clarity. The only part here where any of what you suggested happened is the start where Vader is caught off gaurd. Vader is not barely able to block Galen's blows and in fact nothing suggests this.

Aside from the line that directly states he's "being pushed to his limits."

Originally posted by HP Legend
Vader is described as fighting brilliantly (cited before) which shows he's fighting well.

It shows he's a skilled fighter which is why the text goes out of its way to specify that all Vader needs to end Galen is "a single opening." It doesn't specify how well he's doing against Galen though for the reasons I've already explained.

Originally posted by HP Legend
If Vader was barely blocking Galen's blows surely the text would have noted it. And as for his offensive being pushed to it's absolute limits once again it's not noted at all.

Except it DID. You're just repeating yourself at this point which is quite annoying since you're forcing me to do the same.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Galen defending against Vader does not man his offensive was being pushed to it's absolute limits. You're deliberately exaggerating things to fabour Galen.

Show me where I've exaggerated anywhere in this thread.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Vader retreating does not mean he's getting stomped lmao.

The fact is, Vader wasn't even capable of disengaging with Galen by that point. He tried to but Galen didn't allow him to. It's similar to Dooku's fight with Anakin in that Dooku was desperately looking for an escape in order to reorient himself. The difference there is that Dooku managed to find an opening to disengage despite being utterly outclassed by Anakin. Vader was unable to with Galen.

Originally posted by HP Legend
nd near misses are still near misses.

They do show however that Vader is so focused on retreating and blocking Galen's blows that he's no longer concerned with punishing or retaliating against strikes in close proximity to his person. I.E. that he's too overwhelmed dealing with Galen's offensive to worry about it.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Vader was losing but the amount is exaggerated and Galen needed to find a chink in his armour to finish him off (something which he was looking for whole fight).

You understand that finding a "chink in the armor" isn't literal. It simply means capitalizing on an opportunity to overwhelm your opponent. The opening that was created came about as a result of Galen pushing Vader as much as he did. The text even notes that the reason Galen lands a blow is because Vader isn't fast enough to intercept his strike.

"Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat." - The Force Unleahsed

Originally posted by HP Legend
You mean a beaten and weakened Vader. Lol okay. And no your rebuttal to this was not adequate. Just because there was no blood does not mean Vader wasn't injuired especially since lightsabers should cauterize w

That is a possibility which I noted in my response as I mentioned that even if he had been injured, the pain from the injury should logically amp Vader. As a result of you ignoring multiple aspects of my post that you simply found "too difficult" to address, your own post thus far has been quite... unsatisfying.

Originally posted by HP Legend
How many times are you going to say this without proof? All you have is the opening exchange where Vader was taken by surprise.

Just because you refuse to acknowledge the existence of certain quotes doesn't alter the fact that they exist. If you can't learn to accept reality then I've done as much as I can here.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I didn't because I thought the quote made it fairly obvious they'd both been looking for a chink in the armour for the whole fight. "That both of them had been waiting for." Seems fairly self explanatory.

Also it's noted Vader was looking for a chink in the armour at the start:

And Stakiller was stated to be testing his opponents defences:

There I'm done.

Yes. Now where's the quote stating that Galen found that chink as a result of everything that happened in the fight previously as opposed to simply CREATING one by pressuring Vader as he did.

I'll work on a response later.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I'll work on a response later.
👆

Me too

Originally posted by Beelzebub

The quote that states Vader was being pushed to his limits trying to fend Vader off is what insinuates that...

I meant anything suggesting Galen's speed was an advantage. Him testing Vader's defences to their limits does not make him faster lol.

How Vader fought, whether "brilliantly" or "poorly" doesn't tell us how he held up against a particular opponent. Someone like Kas'im likely fought technically perfectly against PoD Bane but he still was being driven back because Bane was simply stronger, faster and more powerful.

Actually it does. The text goes out of it's way to support the idea that Vader could kill Galen if given the slightest opening. Which suggests Vader was close to Galen in lightsaber combat.

"Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses."

And Galen vowing to not give Vader an opening (really melodramatic) suggests Vader was close to breaking down his defences (ie: pushing them to their limits).

"The apprentice vowed not to give him one."

Also the fact that they were noted to be fighting back and forth with the text giving neither the advantage suggests they were close and Vader was holding up well.

"They fought back and forth across the observation dome."

Also the fact that the text notes that Galen needed to embrace his hatred for Vader to beat him shows Galen isn't capable of beating Vader without a boost. This is supported by Galen only finally overwhelming Vader when he finds clarity (a better way to win as Galen puts it).

"The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job."

Also to argue against your "pushed his defences to their absolute limits" argument I'll put this into perspective for you. I'm a Fencer and have routinely been pressed and pushed back (nearly being overwhelmed and my defenses being pushed to their limits) but have managed to get in a hit. I've also done similair things to several opponents I've faced (pushed them back) only to be hit or put on my back foot. This lines up with the text saying they fought back and forth (meaning they both pressured each others defences). Galen pressuring Vader's defences does not mean he was stomping Vader.

You can argue all you want that Galen was winning prior to his clarity but the text itself simply does not support these claims.

Allow me to further supplement this idea. Force Power generally has lot to do with lightsaber combat as you need to dedicate it to augmenting your physical abilities.

Well at the start of the fight Vader sends Galen flying with a Force Push and Galen actually lays still for about 5 seconds indicating he was stunned by Vader's force push. This is more than enough to indicate parity in force power.

https://youtu.be/HblR0sMoh3s?t=757

Alright that's me done with my rebuttal to that. Now that I've done that I'll skip over quite a few of your points because most of it is just you repeating yourself.

No, it says that using the Darkside is ONE way to finish the job that he is seeking a better one because he does not wish to strike Vader down in anger. Once he manages to LET GO of his hatred for Vader he immediately overcomes him.

Exactly... The quote implies Galen is unable to finish Vader unless he throws himself into the dark side or finds another way (which is what he was doing for most of the fight).

This supports what I'm saying you know.

The fact is, Vader wasn't even capable of disengaging with Galen by that point. He tried to but Galen didn't allow him to. It's similar to Dooku's fight with Anakin in that Dooku was desperately looking for an escape in order to reorient himself. The difference there is that Dooku managed to find an opening to disengage despite being utterly outclassed by Anakin. Vader was unable to with Galen.

Yes I know he wasn't capable of disengaging. Vader retreating and not being able to disengage does not mean he's being stomped. It means he's being pressured badly and I said Vader was losing but the amount is exaggerated. Galen still was incapable of overwhelming Vader despite Galen's boost and he required a mistake on Vader's part to do so.

Unless you're seriously going to argue clarity was enough to allow Galen to go from being Vader's equal to stomping him. Clarity doesn't do that.

It's also worth noting that something similair happened on Vader's end as well with him nearly overwhelming Galen.

"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

All it takes is a slight boost on either side for them to pressure each other (eg: Dun Moch or clarity).

Yet either still requires a mistake on their opponents part to win. The two were potrayed as equals with a boost on either side being able to tip the balance slightly.

You understand that finding a "chink in the armor" isn't literal. It simply means capitalizing on an opportunity to overwhelm your opponent. The opening that was created came about as a result of Galen pushing Vader as much as he did. The text even notes that the reason Galen lands a blow is because Vader isn't fast enough to intercept his strike.

I'm aware. Simple really. Vader made a mistake and Galen capitalised on it. This explanation wasn't needed. I undertsand it's not literal. It's true Galen's victory came about because he pressured Vader except it's made perfectly clear all that was required was a mistake on either side regardless of the circumstances (whichever of them was being pushed back). The text made a point about them being equals and both of them being so formidable all it required was a small mistake which could have happened on either end.

That is a possibility which I noted in my response as I mentioned that even if he had been injured, the pain from the injury should logically amp Vader. As a result of you ignoring multiple aspects of my post that you simply found "too difficult" to address, your own post thus far has been quite... unsatisfying.

Pain only carry you so far. The example you brought up with Caedus is flawed because Caedus is noted to be a master of the technique and still get's affected by his injuiries. The only example of Caedus amping himself with pain (at least that I remember) was at the start of his fight with GM Luke when he was still on his feet and had not depleted his force reserves. Other times like when he fought with A Jedi Strike Team his previous injuiries affected him and he didn't use them to amp himself. This was at the end of his fight with The Jedi Strike Team (like with Galen vs Vader).

I think after fighting for several minutes, depleting his force reserves, having his guard beaten down and being stabbed several times Vader wouldn't feel to up to fighting like when Caedus's injuiries began to affect him towards the end of his fight with a Jedi Strike Team.

There done. Wasn't that hard to addresss unlike what you claimed.

Just because you refuse to acknowledge the existence of certain quotes doesn't alter the fact that they exist. If you can't learn to accept reality then I've done as much as I can here.

It's not that I refused to acknowledge there existence. It's just you never provided proof of their existence.

Yes. Now where's the quote stating that Galen found that chink as a result of everything that happened in the fight previously as opposed to simply CREATING one by pressuring Vader as he did.

Nowhere. I conceed on this particular point that Vader's mistake was created by being pressured by Galen.

Conclusion:

Now as much as you'd like to believe otherwise Galen was equal to Vader (prior to his boost) and even with a boost he still needed a mistake on Vader's part to win and it was equally as plausible Vader could have won the fight (if Galen had made a mistake). It's made note of throughout the fight that the advantage kept changing (they fought back and forth) and that with a boost either could gain the upper hand over the other but in the end it came down to who made a mistake first. The text potrays them as equals. Stop trying to argue otherwise.

I'm enjoying this, good debate, nice counter HP. I feel like HP's holding up slightly better but my boy Syn is defending his character with pride.

So is this debate just on TFU 1?

Originally posted by Jaggarath
So is this debate just on TFU 1?

Yup, HP inherently dislikes TFU 2's fdight and thinks it's messy and annoying to debate.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Yup, HP inherently dislikes TFU 2's fdight and thinks it's messy and annoying to debate.

I don't dislike it. It's just I don't have the energy to debate both fights and TFU is considerably easier to debate.

I think we're kind of hitting a wall here. At this point you're just denying evidence that doesn't favor your interpretation which forces me to reiterate my points. I'll probably post one more response and after that you're on your own.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
I think we're kind of hitting a wall here. At this point you're just denying evidence that doesn't favor your interpretation which forces me to reiterate my points. I'll probably post one more response and after that you're on your own.

Ok. Seriously though. I'm not denying evidence. You're the one who things Galen was winning before his boost.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Ok. Seriously though. I'm not denying evidence.

You're literally ignoring sections of my post you don't want to respond to...

Originally posted by HP Legend
You're the one who things Galen was winning before his boost.

Yes... Based on the evidence I'm presenting.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
You're literally ignoring sections of my post you don't want to respond to...

Yes... Based on the evidence I'm presenting.

1. Which sections? Post something which I ignored and I'll address it. I skipped over some of the fluff that didn't need addressing (because it was you repeating yourself) but I don't think I missed anything of importance.

2. Um no. You took a line about Galen pressuring Vader's defences out of context and decided he was winning based on it.

I feel like we're all ignoring evidence here.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I meant anything suggesting Galen's speed was an advantage. Him testing Vader's defences to their limits does not make him faster lol.

If Vader is barely capable of fending off Galen's offensive and Galen has so no such trouble fending off Vader's, that implies that a disparity in speed exists between the two of them. Something that's supported by Galen catching Vader off guard with his speed at the beginning of the fight and overwhelming Vader's defenses with speed at the end of the fight.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Actually it does. The text goes out of it's way to support the idea that Vader could kill Galen if given the slightest opening. Which suggests Vader was close to Galen in lightsaber combat.

Again, the text stating that Vader would be able to immediately capitalize on an opening doesn't suggest he's on par with Galen as an overall combatant. It only suggests that Vader is a skilled and deadly duelist.

Originally posted by HP Legend
And Galen vowing to not give Vader an opening (really melodramatic) suggests Vader was close to breaking down his defences (ie: pushing them to their limits).

How the hell do you come to the conclusion that Vader was close to breaking through his defenses from a line where saying Galen wouldn't give him one?

Originally posted by HP Legend
Also the fact that they were noted to be fighting back and forth with the text giving neither the advantage suggests they were close and Vader was holding up well.

I already addressed this in my first post. This occurs after their initial engagement before Galen has the full measure of Vader. Galen is a very tactical fighter. He studies his opponents and how they fight and uses it against them. With Rahm Kota he knew he couldn't outright overwhelm him in the Force so he figured out a way to turn Rahm's own ability against him. He's not going to go all out against an opponent who's own abilities he himself isn't sure of. Especially when he knows he has to fight the Emperor pretty much after he defeats Vader.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Also the fact that the text notes that Galen needed to embrace his hatred for Vader to beat him shows Galen isn't capable of beating Vader without a boost.

Except it doesn't actually say that. Please stop making false claims. :/

Originally posted by HP Legend
This is supported by Galen only finally overwhelming Vader when he finds clarity (a better way to win as Galen puts it).

"Clarity" doesn't amp someone. It simply allows them to realize something that they hadn't realized before. That realization, per the text, is that Vader is to be pitied rather then hated and, as a result, gives Galen free reign to defeat Vader without giving in to the Darkside.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Also to argue against your "pushed his defences to their absolute limits" argument I'll put this into perspective for you. I'm a Fencer and have routinely been pressed and pushed back (nearly being overwhelmed and my defenses being pushed to their limits) but have managed to get in a hit. I've also done similair things to several opponents I've faced (pushed them back) only to be hit or put on my back foot.

Being quite honest, I don't believe you. Irregardless of whether or not you're telling the truth, your analogy falls flat for two reasons.

1. This is a duel to the death where someone being driven back is going to be doing everything they can to simply gain space and avoid getting hit because they don't want to die. In a sparring match, you might pull some crazy move in order to get in a hit or two because you know you're probably going to lose anyways. In a duel to the death, you're unlikely to risk it because the chance of opening yourself up ti a fatal blow from your opponent is too high. Galen's duel with Shaak Ti is a prime example of the risk you take by carrying out these sort of maneuvers.

2. These are Force user's, not normal humans. Opportunistic counters like the one's you're referencing are far less likely to occur due to the participants having precognition. This means that if you're being driven back you have to get creative if you're going to distract or catch your opponent off guard and can't rely on doing something random or unexpected to catch them off guard.

Originally posted by HP Legend
This lines up with the text saying they fought back and forth (meaning they both pressured each others defences). Galen pressuring Vader's defences does not mean he was stomping Vader.

There's a difference between "going back and forth" and "being driven back."

In the first, both parties are pressuring each other's defenses while in the latter only one party is pressuring another's defenses because the other party is putting all the have into simply fending off the attacks of the other.

Here are some visual depictions of the two to help you understand.

Going back and forth:

Driving someone back:

Originally posted by HP Legend
ou can argue all you want that Galen was winning prior to his clarity but the text itself simply does not support these claims.

Except it clearly does... The fact is this. The only reason Vader lasted as long as he did was because of Galen's lack of knowledge on Vader's abilities and his unwillingness to strike Vader down in anger. After we see these two factors accounted for Galen gains a marked advantage over. In the former he's now pushing Vader to his limits and the latter he outright dominates him.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Allow me to further supplement this idea. Force Power generally has lot to do with lightsaber combat as you need to dedicate it to augmenting your physical abilities.

Well at the start of the fight Vader sends Galen flying with a Force Push and Galen actually lays still for about 5 seconds indicating he was stunned by Vader's force push. This is more than enough to indicate parity in force power.

This never occurred in the novel and, per Leeland Chee, the novelization of TFU takes precedent over any ancillary material or alternative portrayals when it comes to what actually occurred in the TFU storyline.

In 2008, the next chapter of the Star Wars saga will be told in LucasArts' brand-new, next generation video game, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed. The game casts players as Darth Vader's "Secret Apprentice" and the storyline promises to unveil new revelations about the Star Wars galaxy. The official The Force Unleashed novel by author Sean Williams ( based on the story by Haden Blackman ) will cover the events of the game, providing the one true "canon" path of events that affect the Star Wars saga. - First Look: The Force Unleashed Novel.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Exactly... The quote implies Galen is unable to finish Vader unless he throws himself into the dark side or finds another way (which is what he was doing for most of the fight).

It in no way implies he is unable to overcome him. It simply shows that Galen is unwilling to give in to the Darkside and still harbors anger and resentment towards Vader. He's trying to figure out how to defeat Vader without giving into those emotions.

Originally posted by HP Legend
This supports what I'm saying you know.

No, they don't. But I'm starting to believe that you actually think they do which is worrying.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yes I know he wasn't capable of disengaging. Vader retreating and not being able to disengage does not mean he's being stomped.

Similar instances like the fight between Dooku and Anakin would suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Galen still was incapable of overwhelming Vader despite Galen's boost and he required a mistake on Vader's part to do so.

What mistake is Vader shown making? The text literally states the reason Galen lands the blow is because Vader is too slow to intercept it. Meaning it portrays it in the exact opposite way you're saying, showing that Galen did in fact overwhelm Vader. And what boost are you talking about? Galen never receives any boost outside of an instance where he briefly gave in to his anger before reigning himself in.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Unless you're seriously going to argue clarity was enough to allow Galen to go from being Vader's equal to stomping him. Clarity doesn't do that.

It does when the one thing stopping you from dominating your opponent is fear that you'll strike them down in anger and hatred and the clarity is what allows you to rid yourself of those emotions.

Originally posted by HP Legend
It's also worth noting that something similair happened on Vader's end as well with him nearly overwhelming Galen.

Yet either still requires a mistake on their opponents part to win. The two were potrayed as equals with a boost on either side being able to tip the balance slightly.

You've already posted this. Vader managing to come close to landing a blow when rage amped when Galen does that normally does not indicate parity.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I'm aware. Simple really. Vader made a mistake and Galen capitalised on it. This explanation wasn't needed. I undertsand it's not literal. It's true Galen's victory came about because he pressured Vader except it's made perfectly clear all that was required was a mistake on either side regardless of the circumstances (whichever of them was being pushed back). The text made a point about them being equals and both of them being so formidable all it required was a small mistake which could have happened on either end.

How does "not being fast enough" constitute a mistake. :/

Originally posted by HP Legend
Pain only carry you so far. The example you brought up with Caedus is flawed because Caedus is noted to be a master of the technique and still get's affected by his injuiries. The only example of Caedus amping himself with pain (at least that I remember) was at the start of his fight with GM Luke when he was still on his feet and had not depleted his force reserves. Other times like when he fought with A Jedi Strike Team his previous injuiries affected him and he didn't use them to amp himself. This was at the end of his fight with The Jedi Strike Team (like with Galen vs Vader).

Caedus utilized his pain in order to amp himself in multiple fights including; his fight with Jaina, his fight with Aurra Sing and his aforementioned fight with Luke.

"Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealinig his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath. But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him. He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force." - Tempest.

"His flesh was bulging around the scorch hole in his abdomen, and there were half a dozen syringes planted in his face almost to the barrels. He was in obvious pain-and he was feeding on it." - Invincible.

Multiple instances in the lore contradict your belief as well. Bane's powers were enhanced by pain and Maul himself was able to use his pain to briefly overcome his exhaustion after being hunted for weeks by a droid army on a barren planet with no food or water.

"Ignoring the agony of the two creatures still attached to him, he reached out with the Force and hoisted the stone block on the far side of the room up into the air. His powers were enhanced by pain," - Rule of Two.

Unless you're suggesting Bane knows more about the Force then a man who access to all of Bane's knowledge and entire libraries of accumulated Darkside knowledge. If you are, I don't know what to tell you.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I think after fighting for several minutes, depleting his force reserves, having his guard beaten down and being stabbed several times Vader wouldn't feel to up to fighting like when Caedus's injuries began to affect him towards the end of his fight with a Jedi Strike Team.

Why don't you post the passage you're referencing for context so we can see if it's as you say. The other instances I mentioned above would seem to go imply the circumstances you're mentioning differ in some way to themselves to have leads to such a different outcome.

Originally posted by HP Legend
There done. Wasn't that hard to addresss unlike what you claimed.

Don't think I'd call that addressing my points. More like dancing around them. Or attempting to anyways.

Originally posted by HP Legend
It's not that I refused to acknowledge there existence. It's just you never provided proof of their existence.

Or perhaps it's that you refuse to acknowledge it as such...

Originally posted by HP Legend
Nowhere. I conceed on this particular point that Vader's mistake was created by being pressured by Galen.

Glad to see that you are capable of understanding reason if it's presented to you enough times.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Now as much as you'd like to believe otherwise Galen was equal to Vader (prior to his boost) and even with a boost he still needed a mistake on Vader's part to win[QUOTE=16768534][i]Originally posted by HP Legend and it was equally as plausible Vader could have won the fight (if Galen had made a mistake). It's made note of throughout the fight that the advantage kept changing (they fought back and forth) and that with a boost either could gain the upper hand over the other but in the end it came down to who made a mistake first. The text potrays them as equals. Stop trying to argue otherwise.

I'll reiterate my points here for the last time.

1. Not being fast enough does not constitute a "mistake."

2. The only point at which they are going "back and forth" is when Galen is fighting cautiously in order to assess Vader's capabilities, in every other non circumstantial instance he has the advantage.

3. The boost Vader received only allowed him to replicate a feat Galen accomplished whilst holding back.

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. Which sections? Post something which I ignored and I'll address it. I skipped over some of the fluff that didn't need addressing (because it was you repeating yourself) but I don't think I missed anything of importance.

2. Um no. You took a line about Galen pressuring Vader's defences out of context and decided he was winning based on it.

1. Mostly you ignoring my explanation for why Vader was able to take Vader off guard in the first place and how Vader has no such excuse, especially considering he was the one who had been training Galen since he was a child. Another would be you not addressing that Galen ragdolled Vader at the end of the fight.

2. I took a several lines showing Galen being notable faster then Vader and using that speed to ultimately overwhelm Vader to show his superiority*