Comic Book Questions & Discussion

Jon's perception of time(ie. the 4th dimension) is pretty unique. The past, present, and future -- all of it takes place simultaneously for him. So in that respect he also possesses an omnipresence of sorts.

Anyway, Jon certainly isn't depicted as 'linearly' now as he was back in the original source material. He can evidently exist in, and alter, *any* point in the past, and change the present/future accordingly. Where his perception of the future is concerned, it is still seemingly confined to his own personal timeline(that's why he cannot see beyond Superman attacking him.)

ya the whole "superman might kill me thing".crazy.

but its strange to me- if manny knows superman might kill him or whatever why not just change the past again and save himself?

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
ya the whole "superman might kill me thing".crazy.

but its strange to me- if manny knows superman might kill him or whatever why not just change the past again and save himself?

I don't think Jon wants to change anything else, anyway. He witnessed Superman's creation story begin to take shape when he caused the Crisis event, and now he wants to see his 'experiment' through to the end -- regardless of what that end is.

A few issues ago Jon implied that what he was in the middle of was far too important for him to concern himself with anything else:
https://i.imgur.com/At5yW67.jpg

As for why Jon wouldn't reshape reality again to try and 'save' himself or w/e: it's because he simply doesn't care whether Superman destroys him or he destroys the universe. Jon isn't some egocentric, megalomaniac villain like Luthor or Doom... He's not even a villain in the traditional sense at all. His only 'goal' is seeing how this story ends... One way or the other. Everything Jon does in between is just him fulfilling [what he believes is] a preordained role.

I also can't help but wonder if Firestorm's detonation infused Superman with some sort of energy that will make it possible for him to injure/kill Manhattan... All of which was engineered by Ozy.

After all, we know that Firestorm was purposefully detonated by Ozy right when Superman was standing next to him:
https://i.imgur.com/gm1WZsK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/He7IqOb.jpg
Ozy: "Yes. It begins."

Not only did the blast generate a tachyon field that briefly obscured Manhattan's perception of time, but extra emphasis was placed on Superman in its wake:
https://i.imgur.com/nXrLFKZ.jpg
Hal: "What the hell did Firestorm do to Superman?"

We then learned for sure that Firestorm did not cause the blast:
https://i.imgur.com/cfcKpVG.jpg
Stein: "It was a detonation of some kind... One made to appear as though we were the source of it."
Ronnie: "So framed again?"

Batman confirmed that it wasn't caused by Manhattan either:
https://i.imgur.com/2Mhhpjp.jpg
Batman: "They're being played... Firestorm wasn't behind the explosion, but I don't know if the man they're after [Manhattan] was either."

So yeah, it was Ozy... And he obviously did it for a reason. I mean, we already know that he has found a way to manipulate Manhattan's energy to some extent:
https://i.imgur.com/t8l52sO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/944RVXg.jpg

And if Superman was infused with the same type of energy that Firestorm generated when he detonated, it makes sense why Manhattan can't see anything beyond 'the punch'.

...mmm

I’m calling it now

Superman punches DM hard. The initial shockwave is big but doesn’t kill DM. As he proceeds to question superman, Superman’s answers manage to change DM viewpoint. Doing so, DM decides to take OZy and the gang to back to their multiverse and fix stuff. Superman inspires DM to be a man of action

Originally posted by Galan007
I also can't help but wonder if Firestorm's detonation infused Superman with some sort of energy that will make it possible for him to injure/kill Manhattan... All of which was engineered by Ozy.

After all, we know that Firestorm was purposefully detonated by Ozy right when Superman was standing next to him:
https://i.imgur.com/gm1WZsK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/He7IqOb.jpg
Ozy: "Yes. It begins."

Not only did the blast generate a tachyon field that briefly obscured Manhattan's perception of time, but extra emphasis was placed on Superman in its wake:
https://i.imgur.com/nXrLFKZ.jpg
Hal: "What the hell did Firestorm do to Superman?"

We then learned for sure that Firestorm did not cause the blast:
https://i.imgur.com/cfcKpVG.jpg
Stein: "It was a detonation of some kind... One made to appear as though we were the source of it."
Ronnie: "So framed again?"

Batman confirmed that it wasn't caused by Manhattan either:
https://i.imgur.com/2Mhhpjp.jpg
Batman: "They're being played... Firestorm wasn't behind the explosion, but I don't know if the man they're after [Manhattan] was either."

So yeah, it was Ozy... And he obviously did it for a reason. I mean, we already know that he has found a way to manipulate Manhattan's energy to some extent:
https://i.imgur.com/t8l52sO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/944RVXg.jpg

And if Superman was infused with the same type of energy that Firestorm generated when he detonated, it makes sense why Manhattan can't see anything beyond 'the punch'.

...mmm

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman punches DM hard. The initial shockwave is big but doesn't kill DM. As he proceeds to question superman, Superman's answers manage to change DM viewpoint. Doing so, DM decides to take OZy and the gang to back to their multiverse and fix stuff. Superman inspires DM to be a man of action

But they'll still have to explain why Manhattan cannot see into the future at all beyond that moment...

Originally posted by Diesldude
great analysis, but being a superman fan, I rather believe it's a retcon punch that does Manhattan in. No matter how logical your argument may stand.

Originally posted by Galan007
Superman talking him down is the path I hope is taken, tbh.

But they'll still have to explain why Manhattan cannot see into the future at all beyond that moment...

Yeah, this is the other option. Superman legitimately punches Manhattan to death, cuz S-shield haxx...

If this is happening to DM since the beginning of his arrival, then I think it’s the “meta verse”. When it fights back, it likely stripped DM of some of his power when he tries to fight Superman.

He kinda suggested that the evolves.

As you said though, I do hope Superman talks you DM; makes him a man of action to go back and fix his universe. A fight would be weird and feel out of place

Given that Jon perceives all of time simultaneously, he has presumably known about this end, ever since the beginning... Or at the very least, since he altered time/reality to what it currently is.

He knows the end is coming either way, he knows that Superman will be the deciding factor in it either way, and he finds the uncertainty of finally not knowing how every event is going to play out enjoyable:
https://i.imgur.com/lID9o21.jpg

I think he is legitimately looking forward to seeing this through, tbh...

Originally posted by Galan007
I also can't help but wonder if Firestorm's detonation infused Superman with some sort of energy that will make it possible for him to injure/kill Manhattan... All of which was engineered by Ozy.

After all, we know that Firestorm was purposefully detonated by Ozy right when Superman was standing next to him:
https://i.imgur.com/gm1WZsK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/He7IqOb.jpg
Ozy: "Yes. It begins."

Not only did the blast generate a tachyon field that briefly obscured Manhattan's perception of time, but extra emphasis was placed on Superman in its wake:
https://i.imgur.com/nXrLFKZ.jpg
Hal: "What the hell did Firestorm do to Superman?"

We then learned for sure that Firestorm did not cause the blast:
https://i.imgur.com/cfcKpVG.jpg
Stein: "It was a detonation of some kind... One made to appear as though we were the source of it."
Ronnie: "So framed again?"

Batman confirmed that it wasn't caused by Manhattan either:
https://i.imgur.com/2Mhhpjp.jpg
Batman: "They're being played... Firestorm wasn't behind the explosion, but I don't know if the man they're after [Manhattan] was either."

So yeah, it was Ozy... And he obviously did it for a reason. I mean, we already know that he has found a way to manipulate Manhattan's energy to some extent:
https://i.imgur.com/t8l52sO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/944RVXg.jpg

And if Superman was infused with the same type of energy that Firestorm generated when he detonated, it makes sense why Manhattan can't see anything beyond 'the punch'.

...mmm

Mentioned this to Phil, but...

Tachyons were the first thing that came to mind, because it is well established that they are about the only thing that can obscure Jon's ability to perceive time... And we know tachyons were generated when Firestorm detonated.

Thing is, in the past tachyons have only been able to briefly cloud Jon's vision, and make it more difficult for him to perceive time:
https://i.imgur.com/jAkQwBd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zXAbmVA.jpg

He can still see the events to *some* extent, but often mixes up the order in which they are supposed to take place. As Jon himself puts it: "the tachyons are muddling things up.":
https://i.imgur.com/NUh6lCd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zz0DYo8.jpg

But Jon literally cannot see ANYTHING beyond Superman punching him, despite probing thousands of years into the future. His vision isn't just clouded/muddled like it typically gets when tachyons are introduced -- it's completely absent beyond that moment:
https://i.imgur.com/ZoWpyHt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lsfZTj7.jpg

I feel like it's got to have something to do with Ozy detonating Firestorm while he was right on top of Superman, but I just don't know what route Johns is going to take here...

Problem is, it occurs before FS detonated near Superman

And others were affected

What occurs?

DM mentioned he couldn’t see the future before events occurred with FS exploding.

These issues are so far apart, I have to read them again. I may have confused the order of events

But the whole "I can't see anything beyond Superman's punch" thing still takes place after Firestorm detonates either way.

^^ So, am I interpreting this correctly?

Superman's punch, Firestorm's tachyons, and Ozy's schemes > DM?

If so ... looks like yall just got a taste of Hickman nerfed-BeyonderS syndrome.

Or as you would put it G ... "gimped."

superman's punch hasn't affected DM yet so...

if I remember correctly beyonders cannot travel back time, Manhattan can

Ozy's schemes? Doom stole original beyonder's power so...

Originally posted by MrMind
superman's punch hasn't affected DM yet so...

if I remember correctly beyonders cannot travel back time, Manhattan can

Ozy's schemes? Doom stole original beyonder's power so...

if we count multiverse busting as low showing...