Originally posted by MrMind
odg dc list is laughable garbagethe hands is not the source, they are super celestials beings beyond the source wall, they are judges of the source which was mentioned in justice league issue 22
great darkness is not above the presence/the source, presence literally stalemated geb in alan moore's swamp thing
He means the Source AKA The Hand. Theyve been called the same thing
Originally posted by abhilegend
So despite the fact that Forger created an entire multiverse, you think he never created a universe?Its his ****ing job to create universes carver, how do you think he does that?
We saw on panel that WF couldn't created Multiverses on a whim. It took special circumstances for that to happen. Leave this to ODG. Don't feel like debating with someone who types with their eyes closed.
Originally posted by carver9
We saw on panel that WF couldn't created Multiverses on a whim. It took special circumstances for that to happen. Leave this to ODG. Don't feel like debating with someone who types with their eyes closed.
How are you so stupid?
1.) Full power WF(pre-JL#25 conclusion): He created two full-scale multiverses(the original multiverse + the new/evolved multiverse that he planned on replacing it with.) He created the infinitude of Hypertime(and all associated timelines) within those multiverses. He created a cosmic "Recycle Bin"(in the form of the Dark Multiverse, which is orders of magnitude larger than the mainstream multiverse.) He created the infinities of universes that fell into the Dark Multiverse. He created a "pet"(ie. Barbatos) to endlessly consume those failed universes. And he created even some of DC's higher-dimensional planes(like the God Sphere, for example, which is also orders of magnitude larger than the mainstream multiverse.) Etc.
2.) Greatly diminished WF(post-JL#25): His powers were diminished as a result of downgrading himself to a 3D form, but he was still capable of creating entire universes with every swing of his hammer.
3.) Drained WF(JL#37): His powers had been further drained as a result of the merger with his Brothers. In this state he could no longer spark creation-level energies, and moreover, was SO weak that he could barely even lift his arms. However, he was still powerful enough to one-shot a planet that had been hurled at him by Perpetua(which was logically traveling massively FTL), and specifically open up a portal to mainstream earth in order to save the heroes.
Originally posted by Galan007
1.) Full power WF(pre-JL#25 conclusion): He created two full-scale multiverses(the original multiverse + the new/evolved multiverse that he planned on replacing it with.) He created the infinitude of Hypertime(and all associated timelines) within those multiverses. He created a cosmic "Recycle Bin"(in the form of the Dark Multiverse, which is orders of magnitude larger than the mainstream multiverse.) He created the infinities of universes that fell into the Dark Multiverse. He created a "pet"(ie. Barbatos) to endlessly consume those failed universes. And he created even some of DC's higher-dimensional planes(like the God Sphere, for example, which is also orders of magnitude larger than the mainstream multiverse.) Etc.2.) Greatly diminished WF(post-JL#25): His powers were diminished as a result of downgrading himself to a 3D form, but he was still capable of creating entire universes with every swing of his hammer.
3.) Drained WF(JL#37): His powers had been further drained as a result of the merger with his Brothers. In this state he could no longer spark creation-level energies, and moreover, was SO weak that he could barely even lift his arms. However, he was still powerful enough to one-shot a planet that had been hurled at him by Perpetua(which was logically traveling massively FTL), and specifically open up a portal to mainstream earth in order to save the heroes.
Originally posted by abhilegend
We are talking about universes here carver, that's his job? You said he can't create universes?How are you so stupid?
It's so irritating talking to you. The only reason, ONLY reason I mention multiverse is due to you bringing it up in the post I quoted. Your sentence "So despite the fact that Forger created an entire multiverse", so I responded to THIS comment since you brought up a multiverse. You then quote my reply with "We are talking about universes here carver". Do you not see why I don't want to debate with you? You call people stupid when your posting rebuttals seems like they came from a 6 year old. Just go away and leave this to someone else, please.
Originally posted by ODG
I addressed your salient questions with on-panel instances. They're facts. Once you're finished digesting those pointed rebuttals, we can move on to your ancillary propositions. I've got no issue with that. I will not, however, entertain you moving the goalposts every single time you are confronted with utter dismantling of your argument.
No. What you did was reiterate an embellishment (Franklin having future multiversal significance) whilst ignoring all the other points that not only debunked that claim, but highlighted the inconsistent and illogical nature of your doo-doo hierarchy. But you do you 🙂
Originally posted by ODG
Three times over, Franklin Richards heralds the Ninth Cosmos. Hickman, Waid and Ewing. If you haven't read Hickman's Fantastic Four, Waid's History of the Marvel Universe or Ewing's Immortal Hulk, that's on you, pal.
Ive read them all. But you name dropping titles this version of Franklin appeared in doesn't address the points i highlighted. Franklin potentially heralding the 9th cosmos holds no more significance than when Galactus did it in the 7th and 8th. Because thats what said titles state he could potentially become...a Galactus. 😬
Yay Multiversal Messiah! 🙄
Originally posted by ODG
Where does this alternate reality criticism come from? I didn't conflate all Franklin Richardses and throw him into my hierarchy. I specifically chose adult Franklin Richards. Whether he's an alternate reality version makes no difference. If you think he's a 8230 Franklin Richards, ok. So what? That's the one that's in my hierarchy.
It makes a difference because even in using Adult Franklin, youre amping him based on a potential role, not a role he actually currently has. Thats ludicrous. A role that the comics state he isnt essential to and one he can be swapped out of in favour of other beings such as Mr Immortal. In the Immortal Hulk series you name dropped (to no effect,) Franklin got murdered and so didnt even end up taking on the role at the end of time 😆
And what do you mean you didnt conflate the versions of Franklin Richards? In your previous post you literally just tried to justify this alternate future adult Franklins hierarchical placement by referring not only to his future potential role but also kid Franklins feats
Originally posted by ODGLet's just forget that kid Franklin Richards literally molded the universes that comprised the Seventh Cosmos after Secret Wars.
It doesnt end there.....
The most recent reference to Adult Franklin was in Ewings future depiction in Immortal Hulk and he was stone cold dead by the end of time:
Yet Waids potential future glimpse had Franklin as alive and kicking at the end of time:
So Waids Franklin, isnt the same as Ewing's, yet youre lumping them together in your desperate attempt to lend validity to your hierarchy. These different Franklins just demonstrating how tenuous Franklin's position really is, yet youre out here amping him up like its a given.
But hey! Conflate away! 😱
Hypocrite clown
Originally posted by ODG
What's telling though is that you'll criticize my use of alternate reality versions but have no issue conflating and recklessly combining alternate versions of Phoenixforce users in your own headcanon.So when you're done twsting yourself up with your hypocrisy, let us know. 👆
Completely different circumstances. Within Endsong, 616 Jean Grey claimed Here Comes Tomorrow as her experience and relayed specific statements she made during her time in that future.
You on the other hand are taking an alternate future Franklin who has Galactus level showings at best and are boosting him in your wacky hierarchy to beyond IG levels based on revelations that he might become a new wait for it................Galactus! 😱
Then youre justifying this inflated position by referring to feats from a kid Franklin, as well conflating different alternate future versions of this Franklin into one? 💃 😆
One thing i had completely forgotten about until i looked back just now....In order to face the Mad Celestials and put on a Galactus level showing, Franklin 1st had to borrow power from his younger counterpart:
Plus as i stated previously, Franklin didnt reduce Galactus to a herald, he revived him by combining powers with him so that together they could achieve what neither could alone....take down a few Celestials
Franklin achieved this not through his power alone, but by taking the sum total of kid Franklins power that was gifted to him and then using this to revive and empower Galactus to help him take on a few Celestials:
The combined effort to take down the Celestials confirmed:
And yet because of Franklins potential role as shown in an alternate future, here is ODG's hierarchy:
Originally posted by ODG1. The Enigma, a.k.a. The Crown Above All Others (based on lip service, so far)
2. Astral Regulators
3. The One Above All/The One Below All/The House of Ideas
4. The Ultimate Nullifier
5. Abraxas
6. The Beyonder(s)/The Ivory Kings
7. Molecule Man (conglomerated)
8. Multi-Eternity/The First Firmament/The Queen of Nevers/Griever at the End of All Things
9. THOTU
10. Living Tribunal
11. Lifeforce/White Hot Room/Tiger God
12. Engine Room of Creation/Concordance Engines/Enigma Force
13. Adult Franklin Richards
14. Maelstrom w/ Anomaly & Quantum Bands
15. Infinity Gauntlet
16. Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion
17. The Fulcrum/Tiamut the Communicator a.k.a the Dreaming Celestial
18. The Celestial Host/The Horde
19. The Aspirants, a.k.a Dark Celestials
20. The Godkiller Armor
21. Galactus
22. Shaper of Worlds/Kubik/Cube Beings
23. Master Order/Lord Chaos/
24. Epoch/Kronos/Master Hate/Mistress Love
25. The Inbetweener/The Stranger
Franklin above the IG! 😱
The IG meanwhile:
Originally posted by Galan007
As mentioned, I am just talking about a versus setting here -- hierarchical relevance/significance is another discussion entirely. Galactus, for example, is also extremely cosmologically significant, but this does not preclude the notion that he can still be beaten by forces that are not as cosmologically relevant as himself.That said, the heavy/overt implication is that in a versus setting, Franklin would have been unable to defeat three Mad Celestials by himself:
https://ibb.co/DpvB3V8
https://ibb.co/1ZCmvsJDo you think a competent IG-wielder would have a problem handling three Celestials? I don't. Heck, even in Hickman's run, we saw an alternate Reed momentarily tap into the power of an IG, which he then used to one-shot [at least] three Mad Celestials simultaneously:
https://ibb.co/c6DFksg
https://ibb.co/tJkmF6LThat showing alone puts the IG above Franklin by a considerable degree, imo(again, in a versus/battleboard capacity.)
Wackiness reigns 💃
As an aside, notice how in his hierarchy, the petty b*tch could not bring himself to include the Phoenix! 😆
Originally posted by GalacticStormhe was probably drunk GS... I wish him well.
One thing i had completely forgotten about until i looked back just now....In order to face the Mad Celestials and put on a Galactus level showing, Franklin 1st had to borrow power from his younger counterpart:Plus as i stated previously, Franklin didnt reduce Galactus to a herald, he revived him by combining powers with him so that together they could achieve what neither could alone....take down a few Celestials
Franklin achieved this not through his power alone, but by taking the sum total of kid Franklins power that was gifted to him and then using this to revive and empower Galactus to help him take on a few Celestials:
The combined effort to take down the Celestials confirmed:
And yet because of Franklins potential role as shown in an alternate future, here is ODG's hierarchy:
Franklin above the IG! 😱
The IG meanwhile:
Wackiness reigns 💃
As an aside, notice how in his hierarchy, the petty b*tch could not bring himself to include the Phoenix! 😆
Originally posted by carver9
It's so irritating talking to you. The only reason, ONLY reason I mention multiverse is due to you bringing it up in the post I quoted. Your sentence "So despite the fact that Forger created an entire multiverse", so I responded to THIS comment since you brought up a multiverse. You then quote my reply with "We are talking about universes here carver". Do you not see why I don't want to debate with you? You call people stupid when your posting rebuttals seems like they came from a 6 year old. Just go away and leave this to someone else, please.
Its a simple question.
Originally posted by carver9
https://imgur.io/a/RfxZf
https://imgur.io/a/tlZIpI personally don't think Celestials are universal...statements.
I agree. Individual Celestials on average aren't universal scale powers. They're Galactus level. With the most powerful of Celestials being between Galactus level and the Abstracts.
I think on hierarchy lists that when listing races, their placing should be a consideration of how powerful an average individual of their race is. Not how powerful they are en masse cos how would that be quantifiable?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I agree. Individual Celestials on average aren't universal scale powers. They're Galactus level. With the most powerful of Celestials being between Galactus level and the Abstracts.I think on hierarchy lists that when listing races, their placing should be a consideration of how powerful an average individual of their race is. Not how powerful they are en masse cos how would that be quantifiable?
And this is why I dont use statements like creating universes, etc, as evidence of power levels. Especially if it's done off panel.