Comic Book Questions & Discussion

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No. What you did was reiterate an embellishment (Franklin having future multiversal significance) whilst ignoring all the other points that not only debunked that claim, but highlighted the inconsistent and illogical nature of your doo-doo hierarchy. But you do you

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive read them all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It makes a difference because even in using Adult Franklin, youre amping him based on a potential role, not a role he actually currently has.

Originally posted by MrMind
odg dc list is laughable garbage

the hands is not the source, they are super celestials beings beyond the source wall, they are judges of the source which was mentioned in justice league issue 22

great darkness is not above the presence/the source, presence literally stalemated geb in alan moore's swamp thing

Was it conclusively proven that the famous "Hand" that Krona was always studying was Perpetua's? You might be right. Otherwise, why call the other ones Hand(s), plural? In which case, just strike out "the Hand" as a form of the Presence.

It wasn't so much a stalemate as it was an agreement. Last two volumes of Lucifer have put a severe dent in my estimation of the Presence. Can't just ignore it. If you haven't read them, I'd ask you to read them first.

Revised list:

1) Great Darkness, a.k.a. Great Evil Beast, Night, Pralaya
2) The Presence, a.k.a. the Source, the Voice, the Overvoid
3) The Endless, a.k.a. Death + Destiny + Dream + Destruction + Desire + Despair + Delirium
4) The Life Equation/Miracle Machine
5) Anti-Life Equation
6) The Empty Hand
7) The Cosmic Raptor
8) The Hands/Perpetua/Ultra-Monitor
9) Mxy/Batmite
10) Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman
11) Dr. Manhattan/Darkest Knight, a.k.a Batman Who Laughs (final form)
12) Anti-Monitor, a.k.a. Mobius/World Forger a.k.a. Alpheus/Monitor a.k.a Mar Novu
13) Barbatos
14) Cosmic Armor Superman
15) Mandrakk
16) The Entity, a.k.a. White Light of Creation/Nekron/Umbrax
17) conglomerated Power of the Guardians, a.k.a. Ion
18) Worlogog
19) Parallax, Predator, Ophidion, Butcher, Adara, Proselyte
20) Godwave
21) Speedforce
22) conglomerated Darkseid
23) Spectre/The Radiant
24) Quintessence
25) Omegaforce/Astroforce

Originally posted by carver9
Celestials are not Universal. As a group they are but individually, nuuh. Those scans are not the only reference to them being universal, and one of those Celestials is the bottom barrel of the bunch.

World Forger was on the verge of replacing the DC Multiverse with another one he designed with his Cosmic Anvil. That was the entire crisis hazard that the Justice League was confronting. Sure, maybe World Forger cannot snap his fingers and do that ex nihilo but that doesn't necessarily denigrate the level he operates on.

Cdtm lis

Tier 0 Primal Monitor/GEB/Presence
Tier 1 Spectre
Tier 2 Mxy

Tier 5000 Living Tribunal

Tier Infinity +1 Superman

Originally posted by ODG
I'm not suggesting that a single Celestial waved it's hand and "created" the Second Cosmos ex nihilo. But the Celestials were responsible for creating it. How they did so was not exactly explored. In Defenders Beyond it looks like they used a machine. But that was a throw-away panel.

World Forger was on the verge of replacing the DC Multiverse with another one he designed with his Cosmic Anvil. That was the entire crisis hazard that the Justice League was confronting. Sure, maybe World Forger cannot snap his fingers and do that ex nihilo but that doesn't necessarily denigrate the level he operates on.

Uuuummmm, did we read the same book. There was obviously factors on WF being able to even create a multiverse. 1. Mxy destroying reality on his fight NEEDED to happen. 2. This would assist in WF hammer becoming lit. 3. The anvil would then appear and WF would have to strike the anvil with his hammer. Are you telling me, all of this is under his own power, lol?

https://ibb.co/CwhbHWJ
https://ibb.co/L9JxMNx

https://ibb.co/xJPVyZT
https://ibb.co/FhP5sZq

Originally posted by carver9
Uuuummmm, did we read the same book. There was obviously factors on WF being able to even create a multiverse. 1. Mxy destroying reality on his fight NEEDED to happen. 2. This would assist in WF hammer becoming lit. 3. The anvil would then appear and WF would have to strike the anvil with his hammer. Are you telling me, all of this is under his own power, lol?

https://ibb.co/CwhbHWJ
https://ibb.co/L9JxMNx

https://ibb.co/xJPVyZT
https://ibb.co/FhP5sZq

World Forger's sole purpose was to create universes. I am unaware of anything on-panel that disproves he did so.

Originally posted by cdtm
Cdtm lis

Tier 0 Primal Monitor/GEB/Presence
Tier 1 Spectre
Tier 2 Mxy

Tier 5000 Living Tribunal

Tier Infinity +1 Superman

I think Wun Dum Ho is trolling or drunk again, or both.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Bleh, tried resizing it so I wouldn't stretch the page but you can't see sh1t. Here's the relevant piece:

This is the scan you posted which is nothing but a statement. I asked you to show me him doing it. Yes, he's created Universes off panel without any context on the way he's doing that.

Originally posted by carver9
Uuuummmm, did we read the same book. There was obviously factors on WF being able to even create a multiverse. 1. Mxy destroying reality on his fight NEEDED to happen. 2. This would assist in WF hammer becoming lit. 3. The anvil would then appear and WF would have to strike the anvil with his hammer. Are you telling me, all of this is under his own power, lol?

https://ibb.co/CwhbHWJ
https://ibb.co/L9JxMNx

https://ibb.co/xJPVyZT
https://ibb.co/FhP5sZq

How are you so stupid?

Originally posted by carver9
This is the scan you posted which is nothing but a statement. I asked you to show me him doing it. Yes, he's created Universes off panel without any context on the way he's doing that.

There are times where I can appreciate posters homing in upon character statements as inherently unreliable but we both know that there are character statements from "omniscient characters" who fill in the need of the unquestionable narrator who only speak as on-panel characters because they are informing characters within the story. I believe Dream is fulfilling such a role in the pages being posted.

Accordingly, there is no need to question Dream's statements anymore than there is need to question Eternity's statements during the Infinity Gauntlet saga. Granted, if there were subsequent scenes that would utterly contradict such initial statements, there'd be ample cause to question the integrity of the original statements.

Do you have subsequent scenes that utterly contradict World Forger's position or role or feats?

Originally posted by ODG
Revised list:

1) Great Darkness, a.k.a. Great Evil Beast, Night, Pralaya
2) The Presence, a.k.a. the Source, the Voice, the Overvoid
3) The Endless, a.k.a. Death + Destiny + Dream + Destruction + Desire + Despair + Delirium
4) The Life Equation/Miracle Machine
5) Anti-Life Equation
6) The Empty Hand
7) The Cosmic Raptor
8) The Hands/Perpetua/Ultra-Monitor
9) Mxy/Batmite
10) Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman
11) Dr. Manhattan/Darkest Knight, a.k.a Batman Who Laughs (final form)
12) Anti-Monitor, a.k.a. Mobius/World Forger a.k.a. Alpheus/Monitor a.k.a Mar Novu
13) Barbatos
14) Cosmic Armor Superman
15) Mandrakk
16) The Entity, a.k.a. White Light of Creation/Nekron/Umbrax
17) conglomerated Power of the Guardians, a.k.a. Ion
18) Worlogog
19) Parallax, Predator, Ophidion, Butcher, Adara, Proselyte
20) Godwave
21) Speedforce
22) conglomerated Darkseid
23) Spectre/The Radiant
24) Quintessence
25) Omegaforce/Astroforce

... hello? I am trying to invite discussion. Not pretending to declare fact. Let's go people.

Nutty.

Anyway, how the hierarchy of DC comics presently is.

Presence/Source/Overvoid
Great Darkness/The Light of creation
The Hands (group)
Anti Crisis Wonder Woman/Darkest Knight/Dr Manhattan/Cosmic Armor /Mandrakk
Perpetua/Ultra Monitor/Death
Monitor/Anti Monitor /World Forger/The Empty Hand/One True Darkseid/Endless family except Death /Barbatos
Mr Mxyzptlk/Batmite
Spectre/Lords of Order and Chaos
Quintessence
New Gods in true form
Emotional spectrum entities
Guardians of the universe
Olympian Gods
Wizard Shazam

Originally posted by ODG
Guys... Upside Down Man? Time Trapper? Phantom Ring? Anti-Life Entity? The Gentry? Ultimator? Fuginauts? Omega Titans? The Green, a.k.a the Parliament of Trees? The Black, a.k.a. the Parliament of Decay, a.k.a., the Rot? The Red, a.k.a. the Parliament of Limbs? Krona? Volthoom? Imperiex? Phantom Stranger? Kismet? Lords of Chaos/Order?

... hello? I am trying to invite discussion. Not pretending to declare fact. Let's go people.

Don't forget Hecate. Rama Kushna was afraid of her

Seems Gods of Thirteen Heavens >> New Gods

Don't forget Eyonomous and Final Heaven. Awesome write up here...

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/debunking-milk-wars-filth-final-heaven-retconn-cor-2074330/

Retconn has tech that can wipe out the Mutliverse on a whim

Worth mentioning is the Kingdom of story itself in the last issue of Swamp Thing. Meta,,,

The source of magic in the DCU, Otherkind

Lords of Order were ripping reality to shreds. Dr. Fate easily owned the Phantom Stranger...

How can nobody mention Doctor Manhattan???

Cosmic Raptor

Originally posted by ODG
Do you doubt that the World Forge is the realm of dark matter, rich with potential, beneath creation, from which all the worlds in the Multiverse and the Dark Multiverse have been created? If not, World Forger commanded the World Forge, y'know.

There are times where I can appreciate posters homing in upon character statements as inherently unreliable but we both know that there are character statements from "omniscient characters" who fill in the need of the unquestionable narrator who only speak as on-panel characters because they are informing characters within the story. I believe Dream is fulfilling such a role in the pages being posted.

Accordingly, there is no need to question Dream's statements anymore than there is need to question Eternity's statements during the Infinity Gauntlet saga. Granted, if there were subsequent scenes that would utterly contradict such initial statements, there'd be ample cause to question the integrity of the original statements.

Do you have subsequent scenes that utterly contradict World Forger's position or role or feats?

Not questioning his role or if he can or have made Universes or multiverses. What I am saying is, he's creating these things with context. The ONLY on panel showing of him attempting to create a multiverse, he had to orchestrate some things for it to happen. So yes, in that sense, he was about to create a multiverse, BUT was it done under his own power, no.

We can just agree to disagree. I've seen on panel proof of what I'm saying, while you're relying on statements that can be true, but it's obviously not telling us how he made these universes/multiverse.

Hey, question.

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/flashpoint-paradox-anniversary-director-interview

Thanks to its unique aesthetic (at least compared to the rest of DC animation), an all-star cast (a young Michael B. Jordan, fresh off Friday Night Lights, voices Cyborg),

Thanks to Japanese animation studio 4°C — [and minimal supervision on a project nobody else cared about — the Flashpoint Paradox team was able to give their movie a unique visual style.

“It was a blessing in disguise because nobody cared about it,” Oliva tells Inverse. “Nobody wanted to touch it, which gave me a lot of freedom.

In case you still didn't get it...

An all star cast, including Michael B. Jordan, for a film no one else cared about or wanted to touch.

That doesn't happen. A studio won't throw money at a project they have no faith in. Flashpoint Paradox has top shelf animation and an all star cast, it was flush with money, the studio backed it to the hilt.

The story don't add up.

Originally posted by carver9
Not questioning his role or if he can or have made Universes or multiverses. What I am saying is, he's creating these things with context. The ONLY on panel showing of him attempting to create a multiverse, he had to orchestrate some things for it to happen. So yes, in that sense, he was about to create a multiverse, BUT was it done under his own power, no.

We can just agree to disagree. I've seen on panel proof of what I'm saying, while you're relying on statements that can be true, but it's obviously not telling us how he made these universes/multiverse.

After all these years the meaning of the word "context" still eludes you. Amazing.