Originally posted by MrMind
nobody fuking post for you to see you imbecile. quit spazzing out with your gifs, little snitch
Yeah, ODG got emotional again. I just posted that list to get some ideas because ODG list isn't very good and excludes some powerful beings.
I remember that list. A poster named Elaraprime was in competition with another poster to see which company had more cosmics and Elarahprime's list absolutely crushed the Marvel's one. And he said he was only half way done.
That list isn't even modern/updated
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How would you set about doing a cosmic hierarchy,then?
Originally posted by ODG
If you're trying to prove other posters have illogical/unreliable standards, you're likely better served focusing on illustrative examples to engender constructive discussion.You might get the same exact responses you're getting now but then, you cannot be accused of engaging only in platitudes.
Maybe, post your own proposed 1-25 cosmic hierarchy for either Marvel or DC and challenge them on what they think is the worst placement.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Option 1: we have specific incarnations in each slot. The Mxy that shows up in World's Funnest at #1, then Adventures of Superman Mxy at #8, then etc etc? OrOption 2: it's a constantly changing and shifting hierarchy based on the latest comic issue?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Which, depending on their popularity, could even change in the same week if they're being used in two different books.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then how does one determine significance? Not even as if citations are commonplace.
And it doesn't have to be absolute. If more than one interpretation is passable then different conclusions can be drawn from each.
The conclusions would be of the form: X is more powerful than Y in interpretation A, and X is equal to Y in interpretation B, etc.
If you then want to argue that interpretation A is more sensible than interpretation B, you could make a case for it.
Originally posted by Astner
We'd obviously have to wait until both stories conclude before we draw any conclusions. But if we have X beating up Y in Action Comics, and Y beating up X in World's Finest at the same time, I'd say it would be fair to consider them peers.It's about finding the most convincing interpretation. To weed out the noise.
And it doesn't have to be absolute. If more than one interpretation is passable then different conclusions can be drawn from each.
The conclusions would be of the form: X is more powerful than Y in interpretation A, and X is equal to Y in interpretation B, etc.
If you then want to argue that interpretation A is more sensible than interpretation B, you could make a case for it.
Originally posted by Astner
We'd obviously have to wait until both stories conclude before we draw any conclusions. But if we have X beating up Y in Action Comics, and Y beating up X in World's Finest at the same time, I'd say it would be fair to consider them peers.It's about finding the most convincing interpretation. To weed out the noise.
And it doesn't have to be absolute. If more than one interpretation is passable then different conclusions can be drawn from each.
The conclusions would be of the form: X is more powerful than Y in interpretation A, and X is equal to Y in interpretation B, etc.
If you then want to argue that interpretation A is more sensible than interpretation B, you could make a case for it.
Even with both stories concluding, discrepancies still exist - and not just in cosmic hierarchies, but in any comic hierarchy really, and that is just due to the nature of comic books.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Give me your cosmic hierarchy then. I'll dismantle it in one post.
Originally posted by Astner
and right now I don't have time to look into some of the cornerstone feats that I'd like to read over and reflect on before committing to a specific hierarchy for either Marvel or DC.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Even with both stories concluding, discrepancies still exist - and not just in cosmic hierarchies, but in any comic hierarchy really, and that is just due to the nature of comic books.
We're looking for the best possible explanation, not a perfect one.
Originally posted by AstnerThe AoS scene, while perfectly valid, never really made sense to me. In the very scan you posted, for example, Mxy stated that he was completely and utterly powerless... But as we found out later in the issue: he wasn't. Mxy could still conjure *some* of his magic, and even return back to the 5th dimension(which apparently negated Spectre's actions entirely and restored Mxy to 100%.) Regardless, I personally just chalk it up to writer inconsistency -- not even Mxy is immune to that. /shrug
Speaking of the Emperor Joker story. One of the Joker's notable feats is possessing the Spectre.This is particularly interesting because in a tie-in to Day of Vengeance it was shown that the Spectre had drained Mr. Mxyzptlk's power.
- Adventures of Superman (1987) #646
So here we're faced with a seeming contradiction. Mr. Mxyzptlk's power was enough to take control of the Spectre, and the Spectre's power was enough to drain Mr. Mxyzptlk. Of course you can resolve this in a number of different ways. You can say that the Emperor Joker story and World's Funnest (were Mr. Mxyzptlk also defeated the Spectre) are two stories, and Adventures of Superman #646 is just one story. But you could also argue that Day of Vengeance came out after either of the previous stories and therefore should be more relevant. Either interpretation works fine in my opinion, the point is that you need a sensible interpretation.
Because Mxy/5D Imps have been shown to be demonstrably above Spectre on a more consistent basis. ..
-Emperor Joker(a novice with Mxy's power) usurped the Spectre entity itself, warped him into a parakeet, and stuffed him in a birdcage.
-Lkz(a lower-level Imp) beat/imprisoned Spectre.
-Both Mxy and Bat-Mite owned numerous iterations of Spectre in World's Funnest.
-Mxy effortlessly clapped Spectre in the Black Hammer/JL crossover(I know it's not strictly canon to all involved, but it's still worth mentioning.)
So in a direct battle between Mxy and Spectre, we have more proof than not to conclude that Mxy is superior, imo.
Originally posted by AstnerAs mentioned in my last post: the outcome of a Mxy vs. Perpetua, or Mxy vs. Manhattan battle is dependent on the metric you use. If we scale by feats alone, then neither of them are beating Mxy... But if we also account for character statements and/or writer intent, then both of them scale above Mxy.
As far as Mr. Mxyzptlk vs Perpetua is concerned. I'm open to persuasion on that one. Clearly the World-Forger needed to rely on Mr. Mxyzpltk's and Bat-Mite's powers to unravel the universe to then create a new one. And the three Monitor brothers never seemed all that impressive in terms of power, with the exception of the Anti-Monitor in Crisis on Infinite Earths. But at that point he channeled the powers of the Anti-matter Universe. But you still have to contend with Mr. Mxyzpltk's claim that Dr. Manhattan was more powerful than he, and (after having his brain implant) the Darkest Knight consolidated more power before taking on Perpetua.If you or anyone else can sort it out I'd be a bit more receptive. But as it stands I'm of the impression that this is just a bunch of cherry-picking with little to no regard for consistency or contextualizing.
Originally posted by Astner
Discrepancies do not invalidate an interpretation, only interpretations with fewer discrepancies do.We're looking for the best possible explanation, not a perfect one.
Oh wait, who am I kidding.
Originally posted by Galan007Honestly, I think Mister Mxyzptlk is just a troll. I mean that sincerely.
The AoS scene, while perfectly valid, never really made sense to me. In the very scan you posted, for example, Mxy stated that he was completely and utterly powerless... But as we found out later in the issue: he wasn't. Mxy could still conjure *some* of his magic, and even return back to the 5th dimension(which apparently negated Spectre's actions entirely and restored Mxy to 100%.) Regardless, I personally just chalk it up to writer inconsistency -- not even Mxy is immune to that. /shrugBecause Mxy/5D Imps have been shown to be demonstrably above Spectre on a more consistent basis. ..
-Emperor Joker(a novice with Mxy's power) usurped the Spectre entity itself, warped him into a parakeet, and stuffed him in a birdcage.
-Lkz(a lower-level Imp) beat/imprisoned Spectre.
-Both Mxy and Bat-Mite owned numerous iterations of Spectre in World's Funnest.
-Mxy effortlessly clapped Spectre in the Black Hammer/JL crossover(I know it's not strictly canon to all involved, but it's still worth mentioning.)So in a direct battle between Mxy and Spectre, we have more proof than not to conclude that Mxy is superior, imo.
As mentioned in my last post: the outcome of a Mxy vs. Perpetua, or Mxy vs. Manhattan battle is dependent on the metric you use. If we scale by feats alone, then neither of them are beating Mxy... But if we also account for character statements and/or writer intent, then both of them scale above Mxy.
Nearly every time he shows up on-panel, he's simply trying to phuck around with Superman for his own amusement. That's his character on-panel and it's very unique. Because Mxy isn't arrogant in his own status like Dr. Doom nor is he defined by some Abstract mission he must fulfill. He's just that powerful and gets to do what he wants. And what he wants is to phuck around with Superman.
I think every time he shows up and displays any sort of vulnerability/weakness/inferiority to another being -- especially another being who can't actually get within spitting distance of Mxy's on-panel feats -- Mxy's probably just phucking with them also.
Why would he do this? Because Mxy would rather feign weakness to force Superman into struggling to save the day. And that entertains Mxy. Mxy has no ego to save. Now does this help in setting a cosmic hierarchy? Probably not. But can we acknowledge this possibility?
Because if you do, then a DC cosmic hierarchy might not be a simple either/or situation where one must scale Mxy below Doctor Manhattan simply because Mxy himself, a literal on-panel, all-powerful troll simply said so.
