Comic Book Questions & Discussion

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Except the citations the timeline made are pre-crisis comics? Including the instances you mentioned, which are MMH's appearance on Earth and Krypton explodes
They are both specifically attributed to
1)Detective Comics 225(1955, https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Detective_Comics_Vol_1_225)
2) Action Comics 1(1938)
https://ibb.co/GQsJHCsp

But the publishing date of an event's portrayal does not control when it occurs in the DC timeline. Otherwise, that'd be the first thing in the timeline. Which it clearly isn't. You're conflating publishing date with canon historicity.

Waid blew right by WW2 without mentioning Superman's pre-Crisis adventures back then at all. Even specified the time-travelling Hippolyta fighting back then.

Originally posted by ODG
The first time Krypton was portrayed as exploding was in Action Comics #1. Why wouldn't you cite it?

But the publishing date of an event's portrayal does not control when it occurs in the DC timeline. Otherwise, that'd be the first thing in the timeline. Which it clearly isn't. You're conflating publishing date with canon historicity.

Waid blew right by WW2 without mentioning Superman's pre-Crisis adventures back then at all. Even specified the time-travelling Hippolyta fighting back then.

Also, your interpretation doesn't really fit well with the editorial group in DC it seems
I mean, we literally have a writer asked the editorial, and the editorial's opinions lean towards the interpretation of DS' and mine

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Also the writer's posts on Tumblr said when she asked the editorial, they said now everything counts, everything is potentially on the table, and Supergirl is the same Supergirl who died in COIE(Kara also has memories of Pre-Crisis)
https://ibb.co/9kNYF5rX
https://www.tumblr.com/mooncalfe-art/778656047202205696/im-not-sure-if-you-can-answer-this-but-i-was

She also brought back Clarissa Giltedge, whom the writer explicitly confirmed is the same character from 1962(on sale date)'s Action Comics 296 on the DC official website
https://ibb.co/kg79N6kn

https://ibb.co/qF9RfSgK
https://ibb.co/MDmj3TPR
https://ibb.co/Pvm1XStf

https://www.dc.com/blog/2025/05/13/back-to-midvale-sophie-campbell-brightens-things-up-with-supergirl

In this issue, Kara also mentioned she was once on the show Secret Hearts, and was a camera operator
https://ibb.co/XrV73xQy

Supergirl was an actress on the show Secret Hearts in Superman-Family 208(1981)
https://ibb.co/DHk7SXkq

A camera operator for KSF-TV in her Adventure Comics, which lasts to 424(1972)
https://ibb.co/jZPT3JxZ
https://ibb.co/VyRPVgC
https://ibb.co/rGBcPdSm
"Occupation:....TV camera operator"
https://ibb.co/Q3bmv8vR

qwerty, stop feeding the trolls

when will you realize you can't have a good faith debate with the trolls

^ You're threatening the world's supply of irony. If you want to read the same comic I am, by all means.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So if publishing date doesn't mean where a certain event occured in the timeline, then why would it matter the stories are published in Golden Age/Silver Age/Bronze Age? As they're basically just divided by publishing date

Original Superman came out in the late 1930s. JSA storylines were published shortly thereafter. But in this illustrated timeline, the JSA's placement in the timeline appears to clearly precede Superman.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Also, your interpretation doesn't really fit well with the editorial group in DC it seems
I mean, we literally have a writer asked the editorial, and the editorial's opinions lean towards the interpretation of DS' and mine

It's wholly possible that Waid interweaves things more thoroughly when he comes to Crisis on Infinite Earths and Dark Crisis, etc. In fact, I am looking forward to Waid revisiting one of the most famous first team-ups in comics history: JLA meeting JSA which relied on Earth-1 and Earth-2 separation.

Originally posted by ODG
Publishing date doesn't matter. That's what I said. It's whether those stories appear to be part of the timeline as a whole.

Original Superman came out in the late 1930s. JSA storylines were published shortly thereafter. But in this illustrated timeline, the JSA's placement in the timeline appears to clearly precede Superman.

Originally posted by ODG
Writer interviews do not override what's on-panel. If you want to argue Barry Allen is an unreliable narrator, which I wouldn't necessarily argue against, fine. But this is literally the comic we're reading together right now.

It's wholly possible that Waid interweaves things more thoroughly when he comes to Crisis on Infinite Earths and Dark Crisis, etc. In fact, I am looking forward to Waid revisiting one of the most famous first team-ups in comics history: JLA meeting JSA which relied on Earth-1 and Earth-2 separation.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And the issue features the original Superman literally cited in the instance you brought up

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So publishing date doesn't matter, then you got basically no certain proofs for any stories that published in pre-crisis aren't canon, as
1) Some stories don't really have in-universe specific date
2) It hard to tell whether the stories' date is the case of sliding timescale or not

That's not an issue of a sliding timescale.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
That is the thing...your so called on panel proofs...simply don't exist. At best, you just gave your interpretation, but there are other interpretations(like mine and DS'😉 that lean towards what the writer said

Originally posted by ODG
You're conflating publishing date with canon historicity. You can insist on that but that isn't an actual argument. And that insistence clashes horribly with the timeline being presented so far. I don't have to prove a negative. But the fact that Krypton's explosion appears to occur after WW2 literally prevents Superman's WW2 adventures from being a part of this new timeline.

That's not an issue of a sliding timescale.

It's directly stated in the comics that is the intention, like in Justice League (2018) 46
https://ibb.co/994GLbFC

It's directly stated in another DC comic(DC Connect)
https://i.ibb.co/F81BCRJ/Untitled.jpg

It's directly stated in official bios
https://i.ibb.co/hMX4pGS/19.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/52H342T/2.jpg

It's directly in line with what the writer(s), the editorial said
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQAGmBZPhdQ&t=4648s
https://ibb.co/9kNYF5rX

I.E, like I said before, all you got is some quite debatable interpretations, which aren't necessarily in line with others'

2) How many stories in pre-crisis can you *absolutely* certain that occured before WW2, since the publishing date isn't in line with the in-universe date?

And all of these are based on we don't consider some time-travel gimmick, a gimmick Superman And The Authority actually used. It also used on Green Arrow and Speedy in the New History of DCU and Stargirl Spring Break Special

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
1) That isn't just a case of proving a negative, it's because there are proofs/evidence that directly contradicts your interpretation
It's on panel states all history become one
https://ibb.co/1GcTdg12
https://ibb.co/4wZtBY3N

It's directly stated in the comics that is the intention, like in Justice League (2018) 46
https://ibb.co/994GLbFC

It's directly stated in another DC comic(DC Connect)
https://i.ibb.co/F81BCRJ/Untitled.jpg

It's directly stated in official bios
https://i.ibb.co/hMX4pGS/19.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/52H342T/2.jpg

It's directly in line with what the writer(s), the editorial said
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQAGmBZPhdQ&t=4648s
https://ibb.co/9kNYF5rX

I.E, like I said before, all you got is some quite debatable interpretations, which aren't necessarily in line with others'

If you don't like the comic, don't read it. But don't insist that it supports your narrative. Don't pretend that what I am stating is baseless. It's literally this comic. And it's not in line with what you're insisting.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
2) How many stories in pre-crisis can you *absolutely* certain that occured before WW2, since the publishing date isn't in line with the in-universe date?

And all of these are based on we don't consider some time-travel gimmick, a gimmick Superman And The Authority actually used. It also used on Green Arrow and Speedy in the New History of DCU and Stargirl Spring Break Special

The fact that Waid already went through the trouble of inserting time-traveling Hippolyta Wonder Woman there actually retcons pre-Crisis Diana Prince Wonder Woman having WW2 adventures. But I understand you are far less concerned with preserving pre-Crisis Wonder Woman history than you are with preserving pre-Crisis Superman history. And it's obvious why.

The absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence but Superman's absence during the WW2 era of this new DC timeline speaks volumes. Especially if you tack on the approximation of when Krypton exploded.

Originally posted by ODG
We're literally reading New History of the DC Universe #1 together.

If you don't like the comic, don't read it. But don't insist that it supports your narrrative. What I am saying is not an interpretation, it's literally the on-panel plain presentation of this comic. I can't be certain that Waid won't decide to insert a time-traveling current Superman back into WW2 in issue #3. But the original Golden-age pre-Crisis Superman didn't time-travel back to WW2 for those adventures. That was the contemporary period he existed in.

The fact that Waid already went through the trouble of inserting time-traveling Hippolyta Wonder Woman there actually retcons pre-Crisis Diana Prince Wonder Woman having WW2 adventures.

The absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence but Superman's absence during the WW2 era of this new DC timeline speaks volumes. Especially if you tack on the approximation of when Krypton exploded.

I mean, all you have is some retcons, but not outright dismission of Death Metal. And I don't think we ever claimed retcons don't exist.
And on the ohter hand, you have like tons of example just in the New History of the DC Universe *explicitly* cites the comics from pre-crisis, which quite contradicts your interpretation...an interpretation that even the recent DC editorial doesn't agree with it seems

Also, just a reminder for my point 2, Golden Age stories don't necessarily take place before WW2.
Like in Action Comics #432, Superman(who also didn't experience WW2) recalls the first Toyman, with an editor note explicitly refers to Action 64(1943), a Golden Age comic
https://ibb.co/gMDRqhPt

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So where does the New History of the DC Universe *explicitly* state the thing established in Death Metal is wrong?

I mean, all you have is some retcons, but not outright dismission of Death Metal.

We haven't even gotten to Death Metal yet. Let's not jump the horse. But unless Waid decides to revisit the WW2 era after what appears to be a rather straight-forward chronological timeline, Death Metal's throwaway tagline that stated "one timeline where everything matters" appears to be exactly just that: a throwaway tagline.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And I don't think we ever claimed retcons don't exist.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And on the ohter hand, you have like tons of example just in the New History of the DC Universe *explicitly* cites

But, I dunno. It is actually possible that Waid reverses course with the simple chronological timeline so far presented in issue #2 and revisits WW2 and places Golden Age pre-Crisis Superman there. It seems unlikely but it's possible.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Also, just a reminder for my point 2, Golden Age stories don't necessarily take place before WW2.
Like in Action Comics #432, Superman(who also didn't experience WW2) recalls the first Toyman, with an editor note explicitly refers to Action 64(1943), a Golden Age comic
https://ibb.co/gMDRqhPt

But thank you for admitting that pre-Crisis Superman doesn't appear to have emerged and fought in WW2 back during the Silver Age, let alone in the current DC timeline being explored right now. But then you turn around and try to avoid the simple obvious consequence of that fact by again conflating publishing date with canon historicity.

Originally posted by ODG
This is a limp-d1cked strawman and you know it.

We haven't even gotten to Death Metal yet. Let's not jump the horse. But unless Waid decides to revisit the WW2 era after what appears to be a rather straight-forward chronological timeline, Death Metal's throwaway tagline that stated "one timeline where everything matters" appears to be exactly just that: a throwaway tagline. You do, however, imply that the retcons were undone. Undone to the point of perfectly preserving/reinstating all Golden Age history as part of the current DC timeline. You're conflating publishing date with canon historicity. No need to repeat that farce. Because we are being presented the timeline here page by page. And that citation doesn't override the plain presentation of the current timeline to place Krypton's explosion as taking place before WW2. Which would be required for Golden Age pre-Crisis Superman's WW2 adventures to be perfectly preserved as part of the current DC timeline.

But, I dunno. It is actually possible that Waid reverses course with the simple chronological timeline so far presented in issue #2 and revisits WW2 and places Golden Age pre-Crisis Superman there. It seems unlikely but it's possible.

Originally posted by ODG
Action Comics #432 was published in the 1970s. Of course it wouldn't take place before/during WW2. By the 1970s the Silver Age was already in full swing.

But thank you for admitting that pre-Crisis Superman doesn't appear to have emerged and fought in WW2 back during the Silver Age, let alone in the current DC timeline being explored right now. But then you turn around and try to avoid the simple obvious consequence of that fact by again conflating publishing date with canon historicity.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

2) How many stories in pre-crisis can you *absolutely* certain that occured before WW2, since the publishing date isn't in line with the in-universe date?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Is it really just a throwaway tagline when not only does the comic on panel states such, and other official material(bios, other comics feature the writer's intention) also states the same thing?

I mean, it was plainly obvious. Peddling such nonsense because you want to use 80 yr old feats in a random vs thread is just embarrassing. But such immature motivations aside, every new DC comic that was published reinforced that DC did not undo all the retcons. That obvious trend, evidenced by the vast library of post-Death Metal comics that were published by DC... that isn't even what we're discussing right now.

We're discussing New History of the DC Universe #1. Read it or don't.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So like I said before:

How can you be certain the specific Golden Age comics are before WW2?

Originally posted by ODG
We care about comics. Not taglines. Not ads. Not writer interviews. And none of the actual comics in the wake of Death Metal readjusted current Superman's timeline as emerging during WW2. Neither Lois Lane, nor Jimmy Olsen were reframed as being part of America's Greatest Generation.

I mean, it was plainly obvious. Peddling such nonsense because you want to use 80 yr old feats in a random vs thread is just embarrassing. But such immature motivations aside, every new DC comic that was published reinforced that DC did not undo all the retcons. That obvious trend, evidenced by the vast library of post-Death Metal comics that were published... that isn't what we're discussing right now.

We're discussing New History of the DC Universe #1. Read it or don't. You've spun yourself around so dizzily with your prevarications and fallacies that you can't even properly strawman anymore. Compose yourself if you want honest discussion. Or read the comic we're discussing. That would be better than seizing upon random citations in bad faith to distort the plain presentation of the current DC timeline that doesn't fit your peddled narrative.

And yes, I've read it, same as DS, but we both arrived a conclusion that differs from yours. And the problem is, your conclusion doesn't really seem to have an on panel scene *explicitly* states such

Like, seriously, in the comic you keep bringing up(New History of DCU), it cited a lot of Golden Age comics/Pre-Crisis comics, including Superman's origin(Action Comics 1).
So according to you, if publishing date isn't necessarily in line with the in-universe timeline, can you prove certain Golden Age comics are definitely set before WW2?

^ Well, I actually read hundreds of DC issues that were published after Death Metal and, yknow, I had no juvenile motivation to cling to that throwaway tagline in contravention of all that publishing.

We're also discussing New History of the DC Universe #1. And you don't get to twist in bad faith what's being plainly portrayed as if it supports that "one timeline where everything matters" tagline.

It's quite literally doing the opposite. It's arguably continuing/reinforcing the trend of post-Death Metal DC publishing that rendered that throwaway tagline as... being thrown away.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Well, I actually read hundreds of DC issues that were published after Death Metal and, yknow, I had no juvenile motivation to cling to that throwaway tagline in contravention of all that publishing.

We're also discussing New History of the DC Universe #1. And you don't get to twist in bad faith what's being plainly portrayed as if it supports that "one timeline where everything matters" tagline.

It's quite literally doing the opposite. It's arguably continuing/reinforcing the trend of post-Death Metal DC publishing that rendered that throwaway tagline as... being thrown away.

Green Lantern / Green Arrow: World's Finest, Deathstroke's story directly continued in TNTT(1980)
https://ibb.co/XxdVNpWG

Black Adam's issue directly refers a story from Golden Age comics(All-American Comics Vol 1 26, 1941)
https://i.ibb.co/hLfDghj/Black-Adam-2022-005-003.jpg

In the recent Blue Beetle run(after Death Metal) also refers both Pre-crisis and N52 comics
https://ibb.co/HfSpGX9R

In New Golden Age, it mentions event in 1976 comic(all star comics 61)
https://ibb.co/BV44vqBN

All of them with explicit editor notes

Also, like I said before, your interpretation about the New History of DCU doesn't really seem to in line with other people

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Jesus.

History of DC confirms what many of us have been saying. It's all canon - Pre Crisis, Post Crisis, Rebirth etc etc.

Everything counts.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yea, the timeline in the last part including Action Comics 1(where Krypton explodes), DC Special Series, Super Friends, DC Comics Presents etc(pre-crisis), and recent like Doomsday Clock or Stargirl The Last Children etc
https://ibb.co/yFd67Y15
https://ibb.co/8LJ3P1D1
https://ibb.co/ccG5Xjwc
https://ibb.co/v4g9kyvD
https://ibb.co/rft5WgJ8
https://ibb.co/xqB693ny
https://ibb.co/GQJHm5Vb

Dan Didio and Jim Lee could both come out and tell ODG in person everything in dc history is canon and ODG would still say no.

there's no point in arguing