Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
They both hold back just as much as Supes do. Nothing special
Hulk holds back against civilians..in theory. Amadeus proposed that Banner subconsciously held back to prevent injury to civilians and innocents later on Stark kinda confirmed that theory when he faced Hulk in his HB armor and Hulk bfred him to another state. Wrecking his armor and knocking him out but not physically harming him. But these incidents are less common than when he doesn't seem to care who he hurts.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's why so many villains are just the heroes, but not holding back. Extremely similar powersets, but evil.Zoom/Flash. Sinestro/GL. Superman/Zod/Bizarro/Preus. Fernus/J'onn. Wolverine/Sabertooth. Cap/Red Skull. Hulk/Abomination. The list goes on.
I think the difference is in how Marvel and DC treat their heroes. Superman is THE go to guy at the end of days. Marvel don't really have one, and part of that I guess could perhaps be due to the success of their movies.
'Oh you like Thor? Here's how awesome he is! Oh wait, you actually like Hulk? Well here's a scene of him being awesome*!!'
Whilst it gives a lot of feats all round, it actually dilutes their characters. Hulk looks great as he cracks Thor's skull, who looks great as he fights Galactus, who looks great as he eats the universe, whilst Gladiator looks great fighting Galactus, whilst Sentry casually fights him off, and Nova is too fast for him, but Surfer is just as fast etc etc etc.
Otoh, with DC - sure, they too have some instances. But if Batman can't think of a way to win, or Superman can't power his way out of something, it's not as if GL or Diana step up, or Shazam is the powerhouse, or Cyborg out strategises Bats. Its just DCs way.
*Awesome = big feats
Yeah, the ol' "dark reflection" thing.
lol, Thor fans might disagree with you.
Originally posted by carver9
Hulk does hold back. Said on panel.
You can't be serious. We both know you can read better than that. Don't **** around.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Hulk holds back against civilians..in theory. Amadeus proposed that Banner subconsciously held back to prevent injury to civilians and innocents later on Stark kinda confirmed that theory when he faced Hulk in his HB armor and Hulk bfred him to another state. Wrecking his armor and knocking him out but not physically harming him. But these incidents are less common than when he doesn't seem to care who he hurts.
Yup. Hulk does hold back yeah, but not nearly as much.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Yup. Hulk does hold back yeah, but not nearly as much.
Pak retconned Banner (and even the Leader) to be like his pet character, Amadeus Cho --- being able to mathematically calculate everything, even (or especially) in combat situations.
Call it magic or h1a8 math, that's how uber it is.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, the ol' "dark reflection" thing.lol, Thor fans might disagree with you.
You can't be serious. We both know you can read better than that. Don't **** around.
Yup. Hulk does hold back yeah, but not nearly as much.
Amadeus Cho proved that Hulk holds back on a subconscious level nearly all the time.
Spidey I would say you could make a case, yeah.
Maxwell Lord one of the most powerful telepaths on Earth tried mind controlling Superman into killing Wild Cat
Superman subconscious
refusal to take a life/ always holding back refused to let him kill Wildcat while under mind control
Superman refusing to kill, even while Maxwell was forcing him to telepathically
Supes did practice certain meditative techniques to keep from succumbing to sensory overload. Such techniques became subconsciously controlled and would aid in resisting mind control, too.
But as shown, Superman's base instinct was already fighting The command to kill.
I like how Hulk tried to convince Amadeus that he was waging War on all those who exiled him, but Amadeus debunked that. He proved that it was just punishment and not war.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Pak retconned Banner (and even the Leader) to be like his pet character, Amadeus Cho --- being able to mathematically calculate everything, even (or especially) in combat situations.Call it magic or h1a8 math, that's how uber it is.
I don't dispute that.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Amadeus Cho proved that Hulk holds back on a subconscious level nearly all the time.Spidey I would say you could make a case, yeah.
Maxwell Lord one of the most powerful telepaths on Earth tried mind controlling Superman into killing Wild Cat
Superman subconscious
refusal to take a life/ always holding back refused to let him kill Wildcat while under mind controlSuperman refusing to kill, even while Maxwell was forcing him to telepathically
Supes did practice certain meditative techniques to keep from succumbing to sensory overload. Such techniques became subconsciously controlled and would aid in resisting mind control, too.
But as shown, Superman's base instinct was already fighting The command to kill.
I like how Hulk tried to convince Amadeus that he was waging War on all those who exiled him, but Amadeus debunked that. He proved that it was just punishment and not war.
I really don't get what it is you're trying to say, tbh.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't dispute that.
I'm just saying that - in a way - he's even better in the "holding back business" than Clark.
As everything he does as a raging Class 9999999 behemoth is actually a thoroughly calculated action.
Pak even retconned the daddy killing thing, saying it wasn't an accident, but Bruce doing it on purpose.
Leader is turning into Bullseye, even though he's supposed to suck in conventional combat.
Pak = h1a8
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Supes CONSCIOUSLY holds back. Hulk SUBCONSCIOUSLY holds back. This means that Supes CHOOSES to hold back while Hulk INSTINCTIVELY holds back.
No. Superman does both.
And even if you were right, Superman still holds back more. I didn't say that Hulk doesn't hold back. Not at all. Just that Superman does it more. Which he does. By a fair amount.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I'm just saying that - in a way - he's even better in the "holding back business" than Clark.As everything he does as a raging Class 9999999 behemoth is actually a thoroughly calculated action.
Pak even retconned the daddy killing thing, saying it wasn't an accident, but Bruce doing it on purpose.
Leader is turning into Bullseye, even though he's supposed to suck in conventional combat.
Pak = h1a8
I see your point, even if I'm not sure I agree.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I'm just saying that - in a way - he's even better in the "holding back business" than Clark.As everything he does as a raging Class 9999999 behemoth is actually a thoroughly calculated action.
Pak even retconned the daddy killing thing, saying it wasn't an accident, but Bruce doing it on purpose.
Leader is turning into Bullseye, even though he's supposed to suck in conventional combat.
Pak = h1a8
Yep. Good post Stilt
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvilStop lying, Comics stated multiple times that Superman instinctively holding back all the time
Supes CONSCIOUSLY holds back. Hulk SUBCONSCIOUSLY holds back. This means that Supes CHOOSES to hold back while Hulk INSTINCTIVELY holds back.
Originally posted by -Pr-
No. Superman does both.And even if you were right, Superman still holds back more. I didn't say that Hulk doesn't hold back. Not at all. Just that Superman does it more. Which he does. By a fair amount.
I see your point, even if I'm not sure I agree.
Hulk's been subconsciously holding back since Day 1. Supes had to learn to hold back to the point that he can subconsciously hold back.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWHulk's holding back is basically the same as any other hero's, i.e. they don't want to kill. Only for him, since he is generally a retarded character [I mean this literally], they had to introduce gamma math, otherwise nobody would believe an idiot would know how to pull their punches.
I'm just saying that - in a way - he's even better in the "holding back business" than Clark.As everything he does as a raging Class 9999999 behemoth is actually a thoroughly calculated action.
Pak even retconned the daddy killing thing, saying it wasn't an accident, but Bruce doing it on purpose.
Leader is turning into Bullseye, even though he's supposed to suck in conventional combat.
Pak = h1a8
Superman on the other hand holds back to the point where it takes apocalyptic scenarios for him to truly cut loose and access reserves of power he didn't even know he had and skyrockets tiers.
It's like holding back when you fight your little brother vs going from Mr. Mind level knees to Gorgon when Supes goes OWAW.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's why so many villains are just the heroes, but not holding back. Extremely similar powersets, but evil.Zoom/Flash. Sinestro/GL. Superman/Zod/Bizarro/Preus. Fernus/J'onn. Wolverine/Sabertooth. Cap/Red Skull. Hulk/Abomination. The list goes on.
I think the difference is in how Marvel and DC treat their heroes. Superman is THE go to guy at the end of days. Marvel don't really have one, and part of that I guess could perhaps be due to the success of their movies.
'Oh you like Thor? Here's how awesome he is! Oh wait, you actually like Hulk? Well here's a scene of him being awesome*!!'
Whilst it gives a lot of feats all round, it actually dilutes their characters. Hulk looks great as he cracks Thor's skull, who looks great as he fights Galactus, who looks great as he eats the universe, whilst Gladiator looks great fighting Galactus, whilst Sentry casually fights him off, and Nova is too fast for him, but Surfer is just as fast etc etc etc.
Otoh, with DC - sure, they too have some instances. But if Batman can't think of a way to win, or Superman can't power his way out of something, it's not as if GL or Diana step up, or Shazam is the powerhouse, or Cyborg out strategises Bats. Its just DCs way.
*Awesome = big feats
This kind of leads into the reason I've started being drawn to DC more lately; they have, frankly they've ALWAYS had...far more respect for their characters than Marvel. Marvel will do anything to any of their beloved characters for a quick buck, political statement...whatever. Their all just interchangeable properties to them. Marvel has brilliant characters, my favorite 2 in comics...but they just look at them as pieces on a board. DC has always had a sort of reverence for...damn near every character. There's always exceptions but for the most part that's what I see.