full capacity vs in-character (had to happen!)

Originally posted by Galan007
carv is just being a jackass intentionally, though. He's trying to act like the 'full capacity' thing is what's being discussed here. It isn't.

As mentioned, speed is one of the six fundamental abilities at a character's disposal. As an example, this sort of scale is how I think most of us would break down the "fundamental abilities" of any given character(without getting into the more esoteric powers they might have access to):

That being said, the assumption that Superman isn't a drooling buffoon, and would at least use *just enough* of his speed defensively(we're not even talking about offensive speed-blitzes at this point) to stay alive in a forum battle if he deemed his opponent a legitimate threat, isn't remotely the same as Surfer(or any versatile character) pulling exotic abilities out of his ass at the onset.

As someone mentioned earlier: at the end of the day this is a battle board; not a comic book. At some point we have to remove the character(s) from the sharp confines of in-universe plot, and use a smidgen of logic/reason in judging how they might handle themselves in these made-up battles. There has to be a rational suspension of disbelief... And I think it is perfectly rational to believe that a speedster would use *just enough* of their speed(at a minimum) to stay alive in a forum setting.

Does this mean I'm saying that Superman is going to blitz every opponent with planet-busting punches in the first attosecond of the battle, and erase their essence with counter-vibrational frequencies? Obviously not... And anyone who honestly thinks that is the crux of this discussion(not referring to you, btw) really needs to pull their heads out of their own asses.

Strength
Intelligence
Energy Projection
Mental Powers
Fighting Ability
Speed
Agility
Durability
Stamina

Most esoteric stuff falls under the categories of energy projection and mental powers. Now you say that your six is what most people consider primary attributes, but as you note that's specifically avoiding getting into esoteric powers, which effectively penalizes versatile characters for being too hax when superspeed itself is also a hax ability. Versatile characters don't typically bust out the exotic from the get go for the exact same reason that super speed is downplayed... for the sake of the plot. It seems like the line that people are trying to draw is so subjective that no amount of clarification will ever keep 90% of debates from boiling down to arguments about the fundamental interpretation of basic forum rules unless the rule just flat out states that superspeed is the only hax ability allowed because Surfer's not a blathering baffoon either and there's no logical reason for him to risk losing rather than stay intangible or add force fields on top of his already impressive durability in order to be virtually invincible in every fight.

As for the speed and versatility being used offensively with devastating results to every opponent, if it's really something that you guys are against then you're probably going to need to remove the Flash example from the forum rules because it does specifically note that on the forum he'll end the fight in the first second of battle which is why people continue to argue that way. I think a large part of the problem is that he's the ONLY example given. See back in the day when Tron laid out the original rules he and Digi would also frequently step in to point out that versatile characters would also try to end their battles as quickly and efficiently as possible just as Flash would. Now it's a different day and the forum's being run differently which is fine, but having that one example with no form of counter balance makes it seem from the outside as though the forum specifically favors speed above all other abilities.

I understand that a lot of people like to see KMC as the middle ground between the debating styles of herochat and CBR and I used to be one of those people. But since you guys are less interested in policing debates than the Mods of yesteryear, personally it's seeming more and more like that's just not possible to do without pissing off half the forum because someone always feels like their favorite characters are getting the short end of the stick. I think if we really want to be fair to all characters, things are just going to have to go one way or the other unless you guys want to have to constantly step in. I can honestly debate by either standard just fine, but trying to navigate a minefield of what seem to be double standards really makes the whole act of debating a headache, which is why I personally try to avoid making more than 2 or 3 posts on any given match. It just doesn't seem worth it to engage the way I used to when me and the person I'm debating can't even agree on the basics of what is relevant based on the rules.

You misunderstand.

I am not saying that esoteric abilities shouldn't be used offensively in a forum setting. That has never been the crux of this discussion at all. I am simply saying that at a bare-bones minimum, it makes sense that a character should at least be able to use a fundamental/rudimentary ability like speed defensively to avoid imminent danger in a forum battle.

Using exotic powers, or even speed, offensively is an entirely different discussion... This whole "how will a character use speed in a forum setting" thing was a bleed-over from a separate thread, which is why most are focusing solely on the application superspeed and nothing else.

Originally posted by Galan007
carv is just being a jackass intentionally, though. He's trying to act like the 'full capacity' thing is what's being discussed here. It isn't.

As mentioned, speed is one of the six fundamental abilities at a character's disposal. As an example, this sort of scale is how I think most of us would break down the "fundamental abilities" of any given character(without getting into the more esoteric powers they might have access to):

That being said, the assumption that Superman isn't a drooling buffoon, and would at least use *just enough* of his speed defensively(we're not even talking about offensive speed-blitzes at this point) to stay alive in a forum battle if he deemed his opponent a legitimate threat, isn't remotely the same as Surfer(or any versatile character) pulling exotic abilities out of his ass at the onset.

As someone mentioned earlier: at the end of the day this is a battle board; not a comic book. At some point we have to remove the character(s) from the sharp confines of in-universe plot, and use a smidgen of logic/reason in judging how they might handle themselves in these made-up battles. There has to be a rational suspension of disbelief... And I think it is perfectly rational to believe that a speedster would use *just enough* of their speed(at a minimum) to stay alive in a forum setting.

Does this mean I'm saying that Superman is going to blitz every opponent with planet-busting punches in the first attosecond of the battle, and erase their essence with counter-vibrational frequencies? Obviously not... And anyone who honestly thinks that is the crux of this discussion(not referring to you, btw) really needs to pull their heads out of their own asses.

This seems perfectly reasonable.

The basic abilities, that follow a minuscule amount of logic should at the very least be the ones used by default, for any character. Even more so, when it's the pure basics of defense [i.e. don't get hit] - not even getting into offense [which, as you pointed out, for anybody that's read the discussion, was not what this was about]. People wanting to argue more [i.e. various uses of defensive abilities, like vibrating/turning intangible, shields, vibrating/turning invisible, various uses of energy projection et all] is where is arguments should start - but the baseline '4th grader' logic should already be there.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but that's the thing, using *just enough* speed is effectively the same thing as going all out in speed if the character's unhittable to his opponent. The degree to which he's using his speed is irrelevant. And I wouldn't say that a character's fundamentals are limited only to those 6 attributes, there's been plenty that have made the list on the various power grids. I think the full list is...

Strength
Intelligence
Energy Projection
Mental Powers
Fighting Ability
Speed
Agility
Durability
Stamina

Most esoteric stuff falls under the categories of energy projection and mental powers. Now you say that your six is what most people consider primary attributes, but as you note that's specifically avoiding getting into esoteric powers, which effectively penalizes versatile characters for being too hax when superspeed itself is also a hax ability. Versatile characters don't typically bust out the exotic from the get go for the exact same reason that super speed is downplayed... for the sake of the plot. It seems like the line that people are trying to draw is so subjective that no amount of clarification will ever keep 90% of debates from boiling down to arguments about the fundamental interpretation of basic forum rules unless the rule just flat out states that superspeed is the only hax ability allowed because Surfer's not a blathering baffoon either and there's no logical reason for him to risk losing rather than stay intangible or add force fields on top of his already impressive durability in order to be virtually invincible in every fight.

As for the speed and versatility being used offensively with devastating results to every opponent, if it's really something that you guys are against then you're probably going to need to remove the Flash example from the forum rules because it does specifically note that on the forum he'll end the fight in the first second of battle which is why people continue to argue that way. I think a large part of the problem is that he's the ONLY example given. See back in the day when Tron laid out the original rules he and Digi would also frequently step in to point out that versatile characters would also try to end their battles as quickly and efficiently as possible just as Flash would. Now it's a different day and the forum's being run differently which is fine, but having that one example with no form of counter balance makes it seem from the outside as though the forum specifically favors speed above all other abilities.

I understand that a lot of people like to see KMC as the middle ground between the debating styles of herochat and CBR and I used to be one of those people. But since you guys are less interested in policing debates than the Mods of yesteryear, personally it's seeming more and more like that's just not possible to do without pissing off half the forum because someone always feels like their favorite characters are getting the short end of the stick. I think if we really want to be fair to all characters, things are just going to have to go one way or the other unless you guys want to have to constantly step in. I can honestly debate by either standard just fine, but trying to navigate a minefield of what seem to be double standards really makes the whole act of debating a headache, which is why I personally try to avoid making more than 2 or 3 posts on any given match. It just doesn't seem worth it to engage the way I used to when me and the person I'm debating can't even agree on the basics of what is relevant based on the rules.

What if Surfer can't do anything offensively while intangible or with shields on? How will he win? And I haven’t even seen Surfer go intangible. Can you post all the times he did that?

A lot of esoteric abilities by Surfer takes time to think about and creativity. A simple blast would be better if it wins outright. It makes no sense for Surfer to employ member controlled tactics when Surfer would think that blasts and maneuvering will do the trick.

Anyway, super perceptions is always on (like strength and durability). It doesn't take any creative thinking to avoid not getting hit against something that can kill you. It does take creative thinking to do a lot of shit some members have Surfer do. Plus it takes more time to pull off and might be a worst tactic than just blasting and maneuvering.

Plus Superman has used speed hundreds (if not thousands) of times.
Surfer doing certain esoteric things maybe once or twice.

It's his day off. He's enjoying the sun

Clark is walking and talking on his phone to his pal billy, just a routine social call, y'know, cuz they're pals.

He smiles and nods (at the approopriate speed for a regular human of course) at the old timer with the hot dog stand who does a mean corn dog.

"Hey Clark!"

Clark touches the index finger on his right hand to the bridge on the frame of his pretend reading glasses nice and slow (so every one can see him) and ambles over (all an act of course).

Aaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!

A woman is screaming, she has gone into labor in an elevator in a city full of millions of high frequency sounds.

Wait... how did... how did... how did... he percieve that and get the correct change out of his wallet (and leave a tip) eat his corn dog take his glasses off, take his clothes off, take his shoes off, completely change his identity, fly across the city, locate the exact building enter the elevator shaft, get in the elevator and scoop her up in his arms before she'd even finished the first scream that she started?

Shouldn't Clark have been perceiving sound like a human? There was no danger to him shouldn't he have had to idk go through some sort of procedure where his abilities, perception, speed, his everything expands in increments?

Read enough clark kent and you'll see this hundreds of times.

Superman's speed is in character at full capacity immediately upon threst detection.

If it wasn't he wouldn't have a secret identity. And he wouldn't be able to perform instantaneous rescues

Every one who actually reads the character will know clark will be having dinner he'll absent mindedly read see or hear something...

😱

and... he's in Malaysia... Earlier that second, Clark was completely relaxed.

If you read the character you will know (No Acting) No reason to chat with and talk down an opponent, get content, get a quote (get a story) for his newspaper (remember he is a reporter) = He's just not going to not make full and istinctive use of his fundamental abilities.

Okay, so, I wanted to put this up last night, but it turned in to a monster, so **** it, I waited until I was happy with it to post it. Basically, you should all know better, and I shouldn't have to explain something that should be common sense after years on this board. So now I'm going to write it out in a way that is going to seem as basic and possibly patronising as possible, but to be honest I want to make sure there are no misunderstandings. In Character means that to the best of your ability, you write the character reacting how they would react in a given situation without the demands of the plot or themselves getting in their own way.

TLDR: Characters, generally, don't self-sabotage to the point that it will cost them the match, nor will they accelerate to 100 in the over-the-top use of their powers, unless it's something you can prove is a habit of theirs.

So, what IS In Character?

It's something that should easily be boiled down to "How a character will react when put in to a specific circumstance" namely a VS battle. How do we know this, or rather, should we know this? Simple: You can name any one of a dozen, if not two-dozen people on this board that could walk in to the offices of Marvel or DC and, like many other comic fans, be seen as having encyclopedic knowledge of a character or a team. The assumption is that with that knowledge comes a level of understanding of said character. If you're reasonably intelligent, and I know a lot of the people on this board are (even if they pretend to be dense as **** sometimes), understanding a character in broad strokes is not that hard.

For example, I've read less than... I'd say easily less than a hundred Spider-Man comics, but if you asked me to describe his personality, I could draw on said comics even without having seen movies or cartoons or even that weird TV show from the 80s, and tell you that Spider-Man is, deep down, just a person trying to do the right thing. He's a genius but also a nerd. He loves his aunt, he loves (or did love) his wife Mary Jane, and he would feel deeply the loss of anyone he couldn't save. That's simple stuff.

Now, if we talk about powers... I know the base-level stuff. I know he can stick to walls. I know he can shoot webs from web shooters he made himself. I know he has a Spider-Sense that warns him of danger. I know he's strong, durable and fast. Strong enough that he has to pull his punches so that a bank-robber's heart doesn't explode. Fast enough that he's not likely to get hit by gunfire. I have read that he's the most agile person in Marvel, though I don't know if that's true or just was at one point. But he does a LOT of flippy shit in his comics. That said, there are probably a bunch of applications of his powers that I haven't the foggiest idea about.

So, with those two in mind, as limited as it might be, I come to the third part: How Spider-Man fights In Character. How do I get there? Simple. As much as I want to be able to say "You go by how the character behaves, not how you would in their place", you still have to fill in the gaps once you take things like PIS out. But, and this is the important part, you are SUPPLEMENTING them. You are NOT. REPLACING. Shit. What you would do with Spider-Man or any other character's powers is great and all, but it's what leads to powerset v powerset, and is for tourneys, NOT for the general board. This part of the point is incredibly important. You are still operating within the paramaters of what a character WOULD do, as opposed to what they CAN do.

Even from reading the comics I've read, which I've already admitted is not that many in comparison to some of the people on this board, I can still say several things with reasonable certainty when it comes to Spider-Man: His superior agility means most enemies will have a hard time hitting him unless they have some hard counter to it like superior speed. He likes to use his webs, which means that character that specialise in melee are going to have a hard time against him, and Spider-Man KNOWS THIS. Because HE KNOWS THIS, he is smart enough to use this to his advantage. This means that because HE knows he doesn't have to close to melee range, that he won't stupidly decide halfway through the fight to try outpunching someone that could out-punch him. Or to waste time on someone that can be wrapped up with one shot of his webs. He can still get close up and win fights, sure, but that's an option, not a necessity.

Obviously, if someone knows Spider-Man better than I do, I'm going to end up getting corrected in threads when it comes to facts about the character, his power levels or his villains if I say something wrong, but the basic idea is still there. I've seen Spider-Man use his webs enough, to be competent in their use, and to avoid attacks while concentrating on his own, to know that at the very least, it's common behaviour. There's a reason "Spider-Man webs up Character X" is a viable tactic on the forum.

"But Pr," you might ask "What if a character has a power that they use more sparingly?". Well, to that I would say:

-Is it a part of their powerset and has been used occasionally enough (ie, like, a dozen times, maybe) that they won't forget they can use it?
-Can they access this power/ability right now?
-Will not using it cost them the fight?

And that right there? That's arguably the most important question.

If the answer to all three of those is yes, then they're most likely going to use the power/ability. Either their opponent can stand up to it, or they can't.

Is that simple enough? I mean, what else do you really need to know?

For the last part of this point, I'm going to use a character I know a bit better: Wally West. Flash is notorious on the forum, and you could say some of it is earned. Most of it, however, is not the fault of the character. If you, as a poster, put The Flash against someone that does not have the means to hurt him, then that is on YOU. It's not The Flash's fault that he's not going to slow down or trip over a branch just to give a substantially slower character a chance against him. And no, no talking shit about the Rogues, btw; they're all designed from the ground up to fight The Flash. They're not ammo for your favourite street leveller to have a shot against him.

If you put Deathstroke up against Flash and try to argue using Identity Crisis as evidence, you deserve to get laughed out of the thread. Like a whole lot of Marvel and DC, you get a writer that writes interesting character studies, or great fights. You rarely get both, and that fight, as entertaining as it was, should have been over before Deathstroke was even able to exhale.

-Now, continuing to use the Flash, and to briefly talk about the Superman Vs Weapon H thread:

A character like the Flash is not going to get hit by someone substantially slower than him unless they have some counter to his powers. Simple as that. Wally West isn't Superman (and I'm going to get in to this in a later post). He can't afford to get hit more than once or twice before it starts to actually impact his ability to win the fight. And this, at the end of all of this ranting on the subject, is where I try to lay it out as best as I can:

The Flash/Relevant Character X will use, at a bare minimum, the least amount of speed/Relevant Power, that he is capable of using under average/normal circumstances, required to not lose the fight, or get so badly injured that it will most-likely cost him the fight. Every superhero or supervillain has a minimum amount of effort and competence that they will utilise going in to a fight. For villains that's usually a higher starting point because they like to not hold back, sure, but the heroes aren't going to be stupid either. They are not going to self-sabotage, and they will not let pride, ego or forgetting they have a way to win the fight to get in the way.

-If you put Flash up against someone that can't beat him without PIS, that's not his fault. That's yours.
-If you put Shadowcat up against someone that can't get around her intangibility without PIS, that's not her fault. That's yours.
-If you put someone up against Xavier that can't get past his telepathy to push him down the stairs, again, that's not his fault. That's yours.

This whole idea of putting lesser character up against ones they can't (and notice I said can't, not won't) beat just because you like them more? I doubt it's going to stop, but seriously, anyone who does it? You're not being clever. We all see what you're doing. You should stop. You'll be better off.

If you read this far, congrats. I really hope this, or at least part of this, has cleared things up for anyone who wasn't sure.

I agree with what Paul said that was stolen from what I said. 👆

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I agree with what Paul said that was stolen from what I said. 👆

Where do you think I got the idea?

==

I do want to get in to how "In Character" and "Full Capacity" actually work well together rather than being mutually exclusive, but tbh I don't know if I really have to.

If you want to see a character's full potential, that's what high-end feats are for most of the time.

Originally posted by -Pr-
In Character means that to the best of your ability, you write the character reacting how they would react in a given situation without the demands of the plot or themselves getting in their own way.

[b]TLDR: Characters, generally, don't self-sabotage to the point that it will cost them the match, nor will they accelerate to 100 in the over-the-top use of their powers, unless it's something you can prove is a habit of theirs.

So, what IS In Character?

The assumption is that with that knowledge comes a level of understanding of said character. If you're reasonably intelligent, and I know a lot of the people on this board are (even if they pretend to be dense as **** sometimes), understanding a character in broad strokes is not that hard.

"But Pr," you might ask "What if a character has a power that they use more sparingly?". Well, to that I would say:

-Is it a part of their powerset and has been used occasionally enough (ie, like, a dozen times, maybe) that they won't forget they can use it?
-Can they access this power/ability right now?
-Will not using it cost them the fight?

And that right there? That's arguably the most important question.

If the answer to all three of those is yes, then they're most likely going to use the power/ability. Either their opponent can stand up to it, or they can't.

Is that simple enough? I mean, what else do you really need to know?

For the last part of this point, I'm going to use a character I know a bit better: Wally West. Flash is notorious on the forum, and you could say some of it is earned. Most of it, however, is not the fault of the character. If you, as a poster, put The Flash against someone that does not have the means to hurt him, then that is on YOU. It's not The Flash's fault that he's not going to slow down or trip over a branch just to give a substantially slower character a chance against him. And no, no talking shit about the Rogues, btw; they're all designed from the ground up to fight The Flash. They're not ammo for your favourite street leveller to have a shot against him.

If you put Deathstroke up against Flash and try to argue using Identity Crisis as evidence, you deserve to get laughed out of the thread. Like a whole lot of Marvel and DC, you get a writer that writes interesting character studies, or great fights. You rarely get both, and that fight, as entertaining as it was, should have been over before Deathstroke was even able to exhale.

-Now, continuing to use the Flash, and to briefly talk about the Superman Vs Weapon H thread:

A character like the Flash is not going to get hit by someone substantially slower than him unless they have some counter to his powers. Simple as that. Wally West isn't Superman (and I'm going to get in to this in a later post). He can't afford to get hit more than once or twice before it starts to actually impact his ability to win the fight. And this, at the end of all of this ranting on the subject, is where I try to lay it out as best as I can:

The Flash/Relevant Character X will use, at a bare minimum, the least amount of speed/Relevant Power, that he is capable of using under average/normal circumstances, required to not lose the fight, or get so badly injured that it will most-likely cost him the fight. Every superhero or supervillain has a minimum amount of effort and competence that they will utilise going in to a fight. For villains that's usually a higher starting point because they like to not hold back, sure, but the heroes aren't going to be stupid either. They are not going to self-sabotage, and they will not let pride, ego or forgetting they have a way to win the fight to get in the way.

-If you put Flash up against someone that can't beat him without PIS, that's not his fault. That's yours.
-If you put Shadowcat up against someone that can't get around her intangibility without PIS, that's not her fault. That's yours.
-If you put someone up against Xavier that can't get past his telepathy to push him down the stairs, again, that's not his fault. That's yours.

This whole idea of putting lesser character up against ones they can't (and notice I said can't, not won't) beat just because you like them more? I doubt it's going to stop, but seriously, anyone who does it? You're not being clever. We all see what you're doing. You should stop. You'll be better off. [/B]

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree for the most part.

I'll use Superman as the lead example here because he's who got this ball rolling in the first place, but the same logic can apply to any speedsters really... My personal opinion is that if you don't want Superman having the potential to hyper-blitz his opponent in a thread, just specify such in the OP, and/or equalize their speeds initially. Problem solved.

If speed is allowed, however, I think Superman is intelligent/rational enough to at least use his speed defensively, in order to avoid getting killed by his opponent IF he believes them to be a legitimate threat. For example, put Supes against Lex with a Kryptonite knife, and I think we can all agree that Superman isn't just going to stand there and allow Lex to stab him with said knife. He's going to dodge the slashes with an *adequate* amount of speed for that particular situation/threat, and then neutralize the threat with that same *adequate* amount of speed. Why? Because he knows the knife is a potential danger to him and he doesn't want to die.

Does that mean he's going to instantly blitz every opponent within the first attosecond of the battle and melt their faces off with HV? No. That wouldn't be a reasonable standard to put him at on average. But as I said, there has to be a point where simple logic/reason factors into how these characters would fight in a forum battle. Again, we can probably all agree that the characters are assumed to go into these battles with the basic will to live, right?

Just MO.

Originally posted by Galan007
carv is just being a jackass intentionally, though. He's trying to act like the 'full capacity' thing is what's being discussed here. It isn't.

As mentioned, speed is one of the six fundamental abilities at a character's disposal. As an example, this sort of scale is how I think most of us would break down the "fundamental abilities" of any given character(without getting into the more esoteric powers they might have access to):

That being said, the assumption that Superman isn't a drooling buffoon, and would at least use *just enough* of his speed defensively(we're not even talking about offensive speed-blitzes at this point) to stay alive in a forum battle if he deemed his opponent a legitimate threat, isn't remotely the same as Surfer(or any versatile character) pulling exotic abilities out of his ass at the onset.

As someone mentioned earlier: at the end of the day this is a battle board; not a comic book. At some point we have to remove the character(s) from the sharp confines of in-universe plot, and use a smidgen of logic/reason in judging how they might handle themselves in these made-up battles. There has to be a rational suspension of disbelief... And I think it is perfectly rational to believe that a speedster would use *just enough* of their speed(at a minimum) to stay alive in a forum setting.

Does this mean I'm saying that Superman is going to blitz every opponent with planet-busting punches in the first attosecond of the battle, and erase their essence with counter-vibrational frequencies? Obviously not... And anyone who honestly thinks that is the crux of this discussion(not referring to you, btw) really needs to pull their heads out of their own asses.

Can we, at long last, put all of this into the rules, so that these threads don't pop up every 2 years?

And maybe, just maybe, given that speed is the problem every time, put a hint at the bottom of it as "pssst, equalize speed if you don't want your consistently super-fast character vs not-super fast character thread to get you angry".

Pr can edit it into the rules, or I can. Either way.

Because, yeah... I want this discussion to be properly squashed and never be contested again after this thread.

Heh. I was expecting Phil to disagree with me, tbh. But yeah, if Galan and Bada are happy with that, sure, why not. If Galan doesn't want to deal with all that formatting, I can.

On the topic of Superman, though, this is what I wanted to put in the original post, but it was too long:

==

Because it seems to be relevant (at least to me), I'm going to talk about Superman himself. I'm sure plenty of you will disagree, and most of you won't even read this, but it's cathartic, so **** you.

Superman has super-speed. This is NOT debatable. "Faster than a speeding bullet" anyone? Even when people like McDuffie nerfed the shit out of him, he sill had Superman use his speed on occasion. It's listed in the ****ing DC Encyclopedia sitting on my shelf. Right after super-strength. Literally. It's the second one listed. Before FLIGHT. Superman being fast is as much a part of his powerset as Wolverine healing, or Nightcrawler's agility. And even if it didn't, there is a mountain of evidence that shows just how fast the guy is, both in travel and in reflex speed.

So then, when people ask "Why doesn't he use it that often?", the answer is simple. Whether it's down to lazy or just bad writing, PIS, or any other number of reasons, the truth is, it's because:

Most of the time, he just doesn't have to.

You have a character who:

-Is the strongest superhero on DC Earth. Sorry Kara/Diana/Billy/Adam fans; you're wrong.
-Is so invulnerable that you need to either be on his level yourself (and most people aren't), or have access to one of the three things that can actually mess with him. And that's just to hurt him at all.
-Is a scientific genius capable of absorbing and understanding vast amounts of information, and building all kinds of crazy inventions.
-Can fly.
-Can shoot beams of heat/force from his eyes that are as hot as if not hotter than the sun.
-Can exhale gale force winds or freeze you solid in a split-second.
-Can see/hear/smell everything going on around him, and process that information instantly.

All of that alone means he's going to win most of the fights alone. He's a walking, talking superhero team.

And then... And THEN... AND THEN...

On top of all of that, he's arguably faster than any hero on DC Earth that doesn't have a lightning bolt on their costume. It's my opinion that he is, in fact, faster than any hero that isn't a Flash (in travel speed at least, and possibly in combat speed too).

Now, people will bring up the fact that he's had fights that he could have won using speed, but didn't. Some of that shit is valid, though because of the examples we have of him using his speed, we're left with either of two answers: One, he's an idiot/masochist that likes to watch people get hurt, or two, it's just plain shite writing or PIS. The latter is far more likely, and in the case of the board, should be the default reasoning. And, we also have more than one in-universe example of Superman willingly taking punches/hits/blasts in the first place. As in, he's intentionally not using his speed to get around shit for actual, valid reasons that go beyond "he's a dumbass". Writers have literally shown us reasons for Superman getting hit by people that should not be able to hit a guy that fast.

The first is, quite plainly, that Superman tends to assume that most shit can't hurt him. You can read all kinds of superhero comics, and in the vast majority of them, the hero is in peril while saving the world. They're saving everyone around them too, sure, but Captain America, the X-Men, most of the Justice League and so on; they're fighting villains that are as much a danger to them as they are to the people they're trying to save.

Superman, more than any hero I've read, encounters that far less. He's saving Metropolis, Earth, Lois or Jimmy, but the actual villain? They're not going to be able to kill, or even seriously harm Superman. That's not to say that Superman doesn't fight his fair share of villains that can hurt him. He does. But it's just not as common.

This is a dude that's had super-strength since he was a toddler. He didn't have to visit the emergency room as a child because he tried drinking from the coloured bottles under the sink, or sticking something in an outlet. He didn't get burned because he put his hand too close to the fireplace. He's grown up not getting sick or feeling pain in a world full of vulnerable, paper-thin people. And, like I said, most of the time he's not in any real danger himself. His days are spent pulling people out of burning buildings or stopping bank robberies (neither of which is any real danger to him), so that when something does come along, something that can hurt him, naturally that takes him by surprise.

He's also busy. Like, insanely busy. At any given time, Superman is hearing not just every voice on Earth simoultaneously, but potentially EVERY SOUND. And that's just one of his senses. His brain is processing everything all the time. Even when he punches people, he can actually do so in a way that even the geometry of his punch is measured so that he's not punching some villain in to a crowd of people that will get mulched by the flying body. If you're going to tell me that in the middle of a fight he can't get distracted just a little bit?

Then you have the heavily, heavily displayed idea that Superman is the king of the proportionate response. When Superman gets hurt, or encounters someone that can actually match him in one area, he doesn't just go full power and wipe them out. No, he brings himself up just enough to beat him or her. If Superman starts at a 10 and they start at a 15? Superman dials it up to 16 because, and he's said so himself, even he doesn't know how powerful he is. At 20, or even 18, he might do some serious damage. This is a guy that instead of just killing a metallic enemy, will instead calculate the actual melting point of their armour and use his heat vision to disable rather than kill them. And this isn't like when Batman leaves you in an alleyway with broken legs and a TBI while telling himself "I don't kill". Superman wants to save everyone, even if it means saving them from themselves.

That includes villains.

Which leads in to the final point: Superman doesn't want to fight. He doesn't like it. He wants to talk things out. If you need to punch him to work off some of that anger, then so be it. He'll let you do that. Even if it hurts him, he'll let it happen. But only to a point. Past a certain point, he WILL decide that you've had enough of a chance to calm the **** down by yourself, but now it's time that he does it for you. Unless you're powerful enough to stop him, and let's be real. Few people are. If I'm being honest, if you're the kind of enemy that Superman is going to use his speed against, then you've earned it by being formidable enough to warrant it.

The problem is incorporating that attitude in to a comic book vs forum. Well, it's a problem for some at least.

But no, Solomon Grundy making contact with a haymaker makes Superman slow as shit. All right.

I'm on my phone right now, so it'd probably be easier if you added this 'addendum' into the rules. If not, I can do it later when I get home.

I can do it. If I **** it up, just let me know lol.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Heh. I was expecting Phil to disagree with me, tbh. But yeah, if Galan and Bada are happy with that, sure, why not. If Galan doesn't want to deal with all that formatting, I can.

On the topic of Superman, though, this is what I wanted to put in the original post, but it was too long:

==

Because it seems to be relevant (at least to me), I'm going to talk about Superman himself. I'm sure plenty of you will disagree, and most of you won't even read this, but it's cathartic, so **** you.

Superman has super-speed. This is NOT debatable. "Faster than a speeding bullet" anyone? Even when people like McDuffie nerfed the shit out of him, he sill had Superman use his speed on occasion. It's listed in the ****ing DC Encyclopedia sitting on my shelf. Right after super-strength. Literally. It's the second one listed. Before FLIGHT. Superman being fast is as much a part of his powerset as Wolverine healing, or Nightcrawler's agility. And even if it didn't, there is a mountain of evidence that shows just how fast the guy is, both in travel and in reflex speed.

So then, when people ask "Why doesn't he use it that often?", the answer is simple. Whether it's down to lazy or just bad writing, PIS, or any other number of reasons, the truth is, it's because:

Most of the time, he just doesn't have to.

You have a character who:

-Is the strongest superhero on DC Earth. Sorry Kara/Diana/Billy/Adam fans; you're wrong.
-Is so invulnerable that you need to either be on his level yourself (and most people aren't), or have access to one of the three things that can actually mess with him. And that's just to hurt him at all.
-Is a scientific genius capable of absorbing and understanding vast amounts of information, and building all kinds of crazy inventions.
-Can fly.
-Can shoot beams of heat/force from his eyes that are as hot as if not hotter than the sun.
-Can exhale gale force winds or freeze you solid in a split-second.
-Can see/hear/smell everything going on around him, and process that information instantly.

All of that alone means he's going to win most of the fights alone. He's a walking, talking superhero team.

And then... And THEN... AND THEN...

On top of all of that, he's arguably faster than any hero on DC Earth that doesn't have a lightning bolt on their costume. It's my opinion that he is, in fact, faster than any hero that isn't a Flash (in travel speed at least, and possibly in combat speed too).

Now, people will bring up the fact that he's had fights that he could have won using speed, but didn't. Some of that shit is valid, though because of the examples we have of him using his speed, we're left with either of two answers: One, he's an idiot/masochist that likes to watch people get hurt, or two, it's just plain shite writing or PIS. The latter is far more likely, and in the case of the board, should be the default reasoning. And, we also have more than one in-universe example of Superman willingly taking punches/hits/blasts in the first place. As in, he's intentionally not using his speed to get around shit for actual, valid reasons that go beyond "he's a dumbass". Writers have literally shown us reasons for Superman getting hit by people that should not be able to hit a guy that fast.

The first is, quite plainly, that Superman tends to assume that most shit can't hurt him. You can read all kinds of superhero comics, and in the vast majority of them, the hero is in peril while saving the world. They're saving everyone around them too, sure, but Captain America, the X-Men, most of the Justice League and so on; they're fighting villains that are as much a danger to them as they are to the people they're trying to save.

Superman, more than any hero I've read, encounters that far less. He's saving Metropolis, Earth, Lois or Jimmy, but the actual villain? They're not going to be able to kill, or even seriously harm Superman. That's not to say that Superman doesn't fight his fair share of villains that can hurt him. He does. But it's just not as common.

This is a dude that's had super-strength since he was a toddler. He didn't have to visit the emergency room as a child because he tried drinking from the coloured bottles under the sink, or sticking something in an outlet. He didn't get burned because he put his hand too close to the fireplace. He's grown up not getting sick or feeling pain in a world full of vulnerable, paper-thin people. And, like I said, most of the time he's not in any real danger himself. His days are spent pulling people out of burning buildings or stopping bank robberies (neither of which is any real danger to him), so that when something does come along, something that can hurt him, naturally that takes him by surprise.

He's also busy. Like, insanely busy. At any given time, Superman is hearing not just every voice on Earth simoultaneously, but potentially EVERY SOUND. And that's just one of his senses. His brain is processing everything all the time. Even when he punches people, he can actually do so in a way that even the geometry of his punch is measured so that he's not punching some villain in to a crowd of people that will get mulched by the flying body. If you're going to tell me that in the middle of a fight he can't get distracted just a little bit?

Then you have the heavily, heavily displayed idea that Superman is the king of the proportionate response. When Superman gets hurt, or encounters someone that can actually match him in one area, he doesn't just go full power and wipe them out. No, he brings himself up just enough to beat him or her. If Superman starts at a 10 and they start at a 15? Superman dials it up to 16 because, and he's said so himself, even he doesn't know how powerful he is. At 20, or even 18, he might do some serious damage. This is a guy that instead of just killing a metallic enemy, will instead calculate the actual melting point of their armour and use his heat vision to disable rather than kill them. And this isn't like when Batman leaves you in an alleyway with broken legs and a TBI while telling himself "I don't kill". Superman wants to save everyone, even if it means saving them from themselves.

That includes villains.

Which leads in to the final point: Superman doesn't want to fight. He doesn't like it. He wants to talk things out. If you need to punch him to work off some of that anger, then so be it. He'll let you do that. Even if it hurts him, he'll let it happen. But only to a point. Past a certain point, he WILL decide that you've had enough of a chance to calm the **** down by yourself, but now it's time that he does it for you. Unless you're powerful enough to stop him, and let's be real. Few people are. If I'm being honest, if you're the kind of enemy that Superman is going to use his speed against, then you've earned it by being formidable enough to warrant it.

The problem is incorporating that attitude in to a comic book vs forum. Well, it's a problem for some at least.

But no, Solomon Grundy making contact with a haymaker makes Superman slow as shit. All right.

If you need reasons, Carver will be along shortly to explain why this is wrong.

😂

Heh. I was expecting Phil to disagree with me, tbh.

I'm surprised you think that, lol. In all of my posts - for which I talked about basic defense, I literally made the bottom of the barrel assumption that Superman won't let a character who can potentially hurt/cut him [like WH], be able to do so. That's...it. That he's not a masochist. For two threads, and a dozen posts, if you can imagine my frustration. No him [defensively] vibrating through attacks or turning invisible - no attosecond-time, infinite strength Superman [offensively] erasing people from existence, vibrating them into pieces, flying through them SF Darkseid style, no HV lobotomizing, no pressure points-blitz, no IMPs, no freezing and shattering limbs, no nothing. [I'm spelling all of that, so people understand what an absurd Superman looks like] The Superman I tried to present was literally with the logic of a 4th grader, "I shouldn't get hit, so I will use my basic power of speed not to get hit", and I still got shit for it.

Now, I can't talk for any otHer Superman fans 1n this thread...

You really forced that 1 in there.

Carver will be along shortly to point out what you meant

Saying that Superman will dodge adamantium claws is exactly the same as saying Silver Surfer will turn intangible and make black holes in people's eyeballs.

I agree with Pr. Phil is a real Clarkbag. 👆

Originally posted by One Big Mob
You really forced that 1 in there.

Carver will be along shortly to point out what you meant

Originally posted by NemeBro
Saying that Superman will dodge adamantium claws is exactly the same as saying Silver Surfer will turn intangible and make black holes in people's eyeballs.