Originally posted by Galan007
Digi and Paola make an appearance the same day? Lol what the hell is going on? At this rate Tron will pop in tomorrow. 😛
Lol, Paola too?!
We're the heralds of Raz's return. I'm here to tell you that he'll be here to destroy KMC and absorb its essence into his being in approximately 25 years. Prepare yourselves.
Originally posted by carver9
Cant wait to use forum Surfer.
Originally posted by Galan007
Stop being an idiot, Carver. No one is trying to peddle the bullshit you're spewing right now.
IDK Galan, I think Surfer is actually a good character to bring into this discussion. I know so far things have focused primarily on speed, but the behavior of extremely versatile characters also seem very relevant in a discussion of full capacity vs in-character. For instance, I can totally see the logic behind someone asking why Superman wouldn't let someone hit him in the face if he can easily dodge at super speed, but by the same token why would Surfer risk getting hit if he can just spend the entire fight intangible or behind force fields?
Hell, why would he engage in a prolonged conflict at all when he can use his versatility to end 95% of fights quickly via BFR, turning off their powers, or trapping his opponent in an energy cocoon? And it's not like he's sporting his old mentality where he'd do everything in his power to avoid killing/injuring his opponents, since Annihilation there's been plenty of times when he's gotten downright ruthless against his opponents right up to the point of totally atomizing them even without his being totally enraged/bloodthirsty or them being an immediate threat to the universe or anything like that. Don't get me wrong because there's normally a bit of a build up with him trying to talk them down and saying things like "Please don't make me do this", but in a forum fight where there's no plot and he knows there's no chance of his opponent surrendering or retreating, why would he bother with wasting any words before he started with the one hit kill after he sees that a few energy blasts won't do the job? I've seen people argue that eventually Surfer will end up in h2h exchanges because that's what almost invariably happens in comics, but going by the way things are sounding in this thread, why would that EVER happen in a forum fight? And to be fair, why would Supes if he can do nothing but fly around using HV and freeze breath?
I haven't read the thread, so maybe someone else said this.
I just "CIS symmetry" in general. If my opposition is using only high end, balls-to-the-walls showings then I'll do the same. If we're using averages or acknowledging something is complicated, then cool too.
Preferably, I'll mention both possibilities. "If character X blitzes/TPbombs/bubbleinbrain/generalhax, they win in quick fashion. If not, then whatever nuance you were expecting will probably happen." It avoids the shitstorms. I've tried discussing CIS before, Monet being an example, and it usually goes nowhere. Outside of a few posters, most just post one high end respect thread pic and go "see! It's in character!"
It's as I explained to leo in the Storm and Fantomex scenario in that Psylocke thread. I just found it's easier to compare highs to highs and lows to lows.
Originally posted by darthgoober
IDK Galan, I think Surfer is actually a good character to bring into this discussion. I know so far things have focused primarily on speed, but the behavior of extremely versatile characters also seem very relevant in a discussion of full capacity vs in-character. For instance, I can totally see the logic behind someone asking why Superman wouldn't let someone hit him in the face if he can easily dodge at super speed, but by the same token why would Surfer risk getting hit if he can just spend the entire fight intangible or behind force fields?Hell, why would he engage in a prolonged conflict at all when he can use his versatility to end 95% of fights quickly via BFR, turning off their powers, or trapping his opponent in an energy cocoon? And it's not like he's sporting his old mentality where he'd do everything in his power to avoid killing/injuring his opponents, since Annihilation there's been plenty of times when he's gotten downright ruthless against his opponents right up to the point of totally atomizing them even without his being totally enraged/bloodthirsty or them being an immediate threat to the universe or anything like that. Don't get me wrong because there's normally a bit of a build up with him trying to talk them down and saying things like "Please don't make me do this", but in a forum fight where there's no plot and he knows there's no chance of his opponent surrendering or retreating, why would he bother with wasting any words before he started with the one hit kill after he sees that a few energy blasts won't do the job? I've seen people argue that eventually Surfer will end up in h2h exchanges because that's what almost invariably happens in comics, but going by the way things are sounding in this thread, why would that EVER happen in a forum fight? And to be fair, why would Supes if he can do nothing but fly around using HV and freeze breath?
This guy gets it (he always does). This is exactly the reason why I said what I said. Ironman would even become a hax character on KMC. Terrax would become relevant again.
Let's put it like this, Terrax actually have FTL and light speed showings... not just flight either. Has destroyed a planet with a swing. Survived in a black hole uninjured, etc, etc... a solid argument can be made of him outright stomping most mid Heralds (Black Adam, etc...) and no one could counter it. This if we are using the characters to the best of their abilities while ignoring their portrayal in comics.
Edit:
Originally posted by leonidas
as i've said--repeatedly--SPEED CAN STILL BE USED! you sound like i'm trying to outlaw speed. i'm saying use it as it is used IN COMICS instead of IRL. i'm not forcing a battle board mentality onto comics... 😕 i'm doing the EXACT opposite--trying to use comics as a foundation for a battle board.pis exists in comics. it would still exist in the forum. speed still exists in comics. speed would still exist in the forum. every would still be in play--we could just drop the silly notion of using powers as they would be used by living people in the real world. it only leads to problems.
and btw--i'm not saying one debating method is inherently better than the other. at all. i'd fine fine debating power sets. i'd be fine debating in a more character-based manner. we have a mix of both here, all the time. throw in the constant high and lowballing that takes place in virtually ever thread and it's no wonder threads are constantly derailed or closed or simply become circular in their content.
again, i think if we profess to be character-based, we should be. otherwise we're no different from anyone else. and that'd be fine with me too. just seems we have enough of those types of sites. be nice to see some different arguments from the same tired old ones we see all the time.
This is a public forum.
You and many of us post BATTLES
By your own hand you typed in your Weapon H vs Superman BATTLE you did not know KMC Forum Rules.
You've been here for YEARS The Comics Versus Forum Rules have been Highlighted, Made Real Easy For All To Read.
Even if you read them once many moons ago ... they have been until recently very highly visible.
Re: Mods perhaps you could disengage the Comic Versus Rules Sticky from the consolidated sticky so tbey can exist once again in an impossible not to see presentation for those of us who may have need to refresh our memory often.
and perhaps consider posting an audio file of the forum rules with exactly the same wording as the text file.
The forum rules allow for every OP to tailor the terms of battle.
If the Op chooses not to do this or the Op is ignorant that the forum rules allow every one to create and specify their own run-time environment AND terms of engagement the fault is with the Op error code is: PEBCAK RL OP CIS obvious and not so obvious fixes: RTFM, Read The Story - Read A Few Full Run Titles and Story Arcs From Beginning to End before you even consider trying to tell people who have read the character of a comic book character especially characters with multiple character presets)) how in your self limiting observation of isolated images on a message board and confused linear thought process you think a character will turn up for an out of universe fight not to fight at full capacity.
Originally posted by darthgoobercarv is just being a jackass intentionally, though. He's trying to act like the 'full capacity' thing is what's being discussed here. It isn't.
IDK Galan, I think Surfer is actually a good character to bring into this discussion. I know so far things have focused primarily on speed, but the behavior of extremely versatile characters also seem very relevant in a discussion of full capacity vs in-character. For instance, I can totally see the logic behind someone asking why Superman wouldn't let someone hit him in the face if he can easily dodge at super speed, but by the same token why would Surfer risk getting hit if he can just spend the entire fight intangible or behind force fields?Hell, why would he engage in a prolonged conflict at all when he can use his versatility to end 95% of fights quickly via BFR, turning off their powers, or trapping his opponent in an energy cocoon? And it's not like he's sporting his old mentality where he'd do everything in his power to avoid killing/injuring his opponents, since Annihilation there's been plenty of times when he's gotten downright ruthless against his opponents right up to the point of totally atomizing them even without his being totally enraged/bloodthirsty or them being an immediate threat to the universe or anything like that. Don't get me wrong because there's normally a bit of a build up with him trying to talk them down and saying things like "Please don't make me do this", but in a forum fight where there's no plot and he knows there's no chance of his opponent surrendering or retreating, why would he bother with wasting any words before he started with the one hit kill after he sees that a few energy blasts won't do the job? I've seen people argue that eventually Surfer will end up in h2h exchanges because that's what almost invariably happens in comics, but going by the way things are sounding in this thread, why would that EVER happen in a forum fight? And to be fair, why would Supes if he can do nothing but fly around using HV and freeze breath?
As mentioned, speed is one of the six fundamental abilities at a character's disposal. As an example, this sort of scale is how I think most of us would break down the "fundamental abilities" of any given character(without getting into the more esoteric powers they might have access to):
That being said, the assumption that Superman isn't a drooling buffoon, and would at least use *just enough* of his speed defensively(we're not even talking about offensive speed-blitzes at this point) to stay alive in a forum battle if he deemed his opponent a legitimate threat, isn't remotely the same as Surfer(or any versatile character) pulling exotic abilities out of his ass at the onset.
As someone mentioned earlier: at the end of the day this is a battle board; not a comic book. At some point we have to remove the character(s) from the sharp confines of in-universe plot, and use a smidgen of logic/reason in judging how they might handle themselves in these made-up battles. There has to be a rational suspension of disbelief... And I think it is perfectly rational to believe that a speedster would use *just enough* of their speed(at a minimum) to stay alive in a forum setting.
Does this mean I'm saying that Superman is going to blitz every opponent with planet-busting punches in the first attosecond of the battle, and erase their essence with counter-vibrational frequencies? Obviously not... And anyone who honestly thinks that is the crux of this discussion(not referring to you, btw) really needs to pull their heads out of their own asses.
Originally posted by carver9
Let's put it like this, Terrax actually have FTL and light speed showings... not just flight either. Has destroyed a planet with a swing. Survived in a black hole uninjured, etc, etc... a solid argument can be made of him outright stomping most mid Heralds (Black Adam, etc...) and no one could counter it. This if we are using the characters to the best of their abilities while ignoring their portrayal in comics.
Reading this as a neighbors dogs is barking non stop.
This is all I'll hear from now on, every time I read a Carver post.
Superman absolutely does choose to get hit. Consistently. It's an established part of his character and MO, and it's laughable to pretend otherwise.
The Warren Ellis scene specifically states that. You'd have to be one hell of a liar to cite that as evidence that he doesn't deliberately attempt to absorb attacks.
Originally posted by shiv
Edit:This is a public forum.
You and many of us post BATTLES
By your own hand you typed in your Weapon H vs Superman BATTLE you did not know KMC Forum Rules.
You've been here for YEARS The Comics Versus Forum Rules have been Highlighted, Made Real Easy For All To Read.
Even if you read them once many moons ago ... they have been until recently very highly visible.
Re: Mods perhaps you could disengage the Comic Versus Rules Sticky from the consolidated sticky so tbey can exist once again in an impossible not to see presentation for those of us who may have need to refresh our memory often.
and perhaps consider posting an audio file of the forum rules with exactly the same wording as the text file.
The forum rules allow for every OP to tailor the terms of battle.
If the Op chooses not to do this or the Op is ignorant that the forum rules allow every one to create and specify their own run-time environment AND terms of engagement the fault is with the Op error code is: PEBCAK RL OP CIS obvious and not so obvious fixes: RTFM, Read The Story - Read A Few Full Run Titles and Story Arcs From Beginning to End before you even consider trying to tell people who have read the character of a comic book character ((especially characters with multiple character presets)) what in your self limiting observation of isolated images on a message board and confused linear thought process how a character will turn up for an out of universe fight not to fight at full capacity.
um.....i guess that was some attempt at trying to sound intelligent...? 😕
anyway, thread makers still retain complete rights to dictate the match of course, but thanks for pointing out they have the rights, currently? the only change would be a re-emphasis on character as a default setting.
and while i may advocate for the change, i've said repeatedly that it doesn't matter to me ultimately how the forum handles its business. i'll pretty much debate anyone, in any way, on anything around here--i think that has been borne out over the years. i just happen to think we have more than enough power set/full capacity sites online already though. i do agree with one thing you were sort of getting at--if the SPIRIT of the established rules was followed, there wouldn't likely be any problems. and, regardless of what, if anything, comes from this hullabaloo, it has served to at least highlight some of the issues that pop up so often in threads. and tbh, that alone is good enough with me.
see previous posts for a still as yet unanswered question.
i'm happy to let the discussion run its course at this point. i tried to explain my reasoning behind raising this issue, but, as with so much on the forum, people will read into it whatever they like. there have been some good points raised on both sides, and if some changes--or at least reaffirmations come from this, well, 👆 if not, it at least killed some time, led to the re-emergence of some old faces lol and led to some very interesting discussion. mods, i appreciate you keeping this open and i leave it, and whatever (if any) future actions that stem from it, in your hands. 👆
Originally posted by panthergod
Superman absolutely does choose to get hit. Consistently. It's an established part of his character and MO, and it's laughable to pretend otherwise.The Warren Ellis scene specifically states that. You'd have to be one hell of a liar to cite that as evidence that he doesn't deliberately attempt to absorb attacks.
Superman also has super senses that let him gauge a threat.
I can produce scans of Superman actively avoiding attacks he's uncertain of, such as a time he fought a giant robot shooting eye lasers at him, in the post crisis era..