full capacity vs in-character (had to happen!)

Originally posted by Philosophía
I'm surprised you think that, lol. In all of my posts - for which I talked about basic defense, I literally made the bottom of the barrel assumption that Superman won't let a character who can potentially hurt/cut him [like WH], be able to do so. That's...it. That he's not a masochist. For two threads, and a dozen posts, if you can imagine my frustration. No him [defensively] vibrating through attacks or turning invisible - no attosecond-time, infinite strength Superman [offensively] erasing people from existence, vibrating them into pieces, flying through them SF Darkseid style, no HV lobotomizing, no pressure points-blitz, no IMPs, no freezing and shattering limbs, no nothing. [I'm spelling all of that, so people understand what an absurd Superman looks like] The Superman I tried to present was literally with the logic of a 4th grader, "I shouldn't get hit, so I will use my basic power of speed not to get hit", and I still got shit for it.

Now, I can't talk for any otHer Superman fans 1n this thread...

I actually disagree with you to an extent, but not to the point that it would affect the outcome of any fight anyway.

If you want to know why, though, I believe I explain as such in the post I made about Superman specifically.

I'll take it to PMs, since there's enough of this talk anyway.

lol np

I'll have a post ready to go up shortly, just want to see what Bada thinks too.

👆

Why would we apply logic and common sense defensively but not offensively though? I mean is there any reason other than making fights last longer? Aren't we effectively inserting our own "plot' to the fights that go down on the forum by actively trying to draw them out that way?

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to argue with you mods(you obviously have the final say so regardless of what anyone else thinks), I'm just trying to understand the reasoning. And I know that super speed is what started this convo and that's why the focus has been on it, but let's face it, the basic general idea of "full capacity vs in-character" is something that comes up in regards to versatility too so I don't understand why we don't go ahead and clarify that kind of thing too. I mean it derails threads almost as often as how characters use their super speed does. You guys know if we don't that Carver or someone else is going to open another "full capacity vs in-character" with versatility as the focus lol. The thread title itself is generalized so why not just open up the discussion to all aspects of it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Why would we apply logic and common sense defensively but not offensively though? I mean is there any reason other than making fights last longer? Aren't we effectively inserting our own "plot' to the fights that go down on the forum by actively trying to draw them out that way?

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to argue with you mods(you obviously have the final say so regardless of what anyone else thinks), I'm just trying to understand the reasoning. And I know that super speed is what started this convo and that's why the focus has been on it, but let's face it, the basic general idea of "full capacity vs in-character" is something that comes up in regards to versatility too so I don't understand why we don't go ahead and clarify that kind of thing too. I mean it derails threads almost as often as how characters use their super speed does. You guys know if we don't that Carver or someone else is going to open another "full capacity vs in-character" with versatility as the focus lol. The thread title itself is generalized so why not just open up the discussion to all aspects of it.

I don't see why it wouldn't account for offense as well as defence. It's just that most superheroes don't throw the first punch, so the focus was on that initial "hero getting attacked by the villain" thing.

As long as it makes sense for the character to do something from what we perceive is their POV, there's no reason why they couldn't do it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
As long as it makes sense for the character to do something from what we perceive is their POV, there's no reason why they couldn't do it.

uh-oh.... 😂

Originally posted by leonidas
uh-oh.... 😂

I know. I know. But I'm not about to start making rules about what a specific character would or would not do. Even my Superman example wasn't a ruling, but instead how I view why his speed is the way it is.

I mean, people can be wrong, and they will be, but that's their problem.

Spider-Man

We all know through out the canon. JJJ has commissioned Peter Parker for (un-known to him) choreographed photo cells and digital images of Spider-Man getting tagged.

With Peter being paid more for photos where Spider-Man looks bad.

And Peter of course has felt dirty doing this, but he's done it to keep food on the table, to pay Aunt May's Medical Expenses.... to pay his rent.

If you've read A Lot of Spider-Man you know this.

Now... if your experience of Spider-Man is random panels of art posted on a message board or some domain ... where absolutely no one posts any of the dark and gritty less exciting panels before the Pay Per Click Main Event lifted from that particular story: Spidey vs The Villain Who Tagged Me you're not going to notice that the feats you're head over heels in love with are absolute PIS.

For people who've read the story from start to finish and know what the character was doing and why they were doing it.... there is no fun spelling it all out for someone who clearly hasn't read the f****** story.

With DC Characters especially you have got to read the story.

Kalibak btw is a different level fighter on Apokolips than On Earth

There is the New Genesis and Apokolips Non Aggression Treaty Which Covers Earth

So Kalibak fights in such a way so as not to accidentally Kill a Terran.

Darkseid sort of looks the other way every time he Does It... And Kalibak of course knows just where to draw the line.

On Apokolips with No Self Limiting to Preserve The Space Treaty... Kalibak is not the clown he appears to be on Earth.

Re Superman getting tagged pretty much every time Bruce wants to tag him...

Bruce is his friend... and he trusts him with his life.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I know. I know. But I'm not about to start making rules about what a specific character would or would not do. Even my Superman example wasn't a ruling, but instead how I view why his speed is the way it is.

I mean, people can be wrong, and they will be, but that's their problem.

I would also add that if the thread starter doesn't want certain abilities/tactics to be used in their thread, all they have to do is specify such in the OP. Problem solved.

We cannot possibly account for every shred of ridiculous BS that certain people might try to argue in threads. All we can do is make blanket rules/generalizations and hope that everyone is adult enough to understand their purpose.

This post has nothing to do with Leo. He's one of the best in the CbvF and I know his frustration with certain people has limits. That said:

Digi and Pr have most of the basics covered. The rest of the basics get covered in the OP by the thread starter. We all know who the trolls, fanboys and idiots are on KMC. Debate them at your own risk, or use the ignore function. Everybody who's been here long enough knows the rules. And for those people who like to pop in and complain, post on another board. You won't break any hearts by leaving. The CBvF rules have been in place for over a decade. The rules won't be changed just so your fanboy wet dreams can be acted out on KMC. If you want to debate powersets the go to the BZ. Otherwise STFU and be glad KMC is still up and running. Here's a refresher of the rules:

Originally posted by Digi
Debating Format

[b]Rules/Standard Fight Settings
In most cases, the poster who originally set up the versus fight determines the conditions of the fight itself (ex. If a character like Superman is in a thread, it'll be assumed that it's the current version unless mentioned otherwise by the thread starter, the same goes with Thanos without the IG, and so on). However, in the cases where the original poster did not set down any constraints or conditions for the fight, then the match would default to the standard rules below.

The Battle
Due to some confusion, I will highlight this now. Unless otherwise specified in the opening post, the matches are one fight. The use of a character winning 7/10 is just to highlight a percentage or odds. There has never been anything in the rules which states there are 10 separate fights.

Prep time
Neither side receives any notable prep time before the starting bell unless the thread starter specifies it. Neither side may take any offensive or defensive actions before the starting bell. Planning is allowed and powers that are automatic or 'always on' can be up, but actions such as setting up forcefields, taking flight, or consciously activating powers is not. For example, Batman cannot shove together an 'anti-Avengers ray' before the fight.

Prep Addendum
Prep time of 10 minutes = 10 minutes relative to the character. So time manipulations wouldn't count for more time. Say Strange went back in time 2 years before the battle is scheduled to start. His 10 minutes would still be running, so he can't just arbitrarily give himself infinite prep time.

In other words, make prep relative to the character, not to their manipulations of time.

Standard Equipment
Each side starts out with the equipment that they normally and have been shown to consistently carry on them. For example, Daredevil would have his billy-club, but Reed Richards would not have the Ultimate Nullifier.
In a scenario fight, the contestants in whose city/reality the fight takes place are allowed access to any material resources they usually have there or of any team they're active members of, as long as they can reasonably get to them. For example, in a scenario set in the DCU, Green Lantern would have access to equipment in the JLA Watchtower, but not the Titans headquarters.
Beta Ray Bill would not have Scuttlebutt and Batman would not have the Batmobile, unless otherwise noted in the open post.

Basic Knowledge
Each side receives basic knowledge of the other. A good measure of this would be what the general population of the character's homeworld knows. For example, that Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite is general knowledge, but that he's Clark Kent is not.

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

No outside help
Unless specified otherwise, no contestant may call for outside assistance, even in scenario matches. For example, Captain America cannot call in the Avengers during a fight with Batman.

Leaving the field
Combatants who leave the field of combat on purpose forfeit the match. If they are removed from the arena against their will (being punched, thrown, teleported, etc.) and can make it back under their own power in a reasonable amount of time, then they are still in the fight. Obviously, if a combatant leaves the field and cannot return under their own power, then they have lost.

No Bias Claims
"Batman can beat Thor because he's cooler!" That's an example of how not to debate. We would like to see the rationale behind any claims that one character can beat the other rather than a claim based on popularity and subjective bias.
Also, we insist that all claims be backed up by evidence from canon sources. If you claim that Spiderman is stronger than Superman, then you have to prove it.

No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.

Comics released strictly online or on web sites will not be considered proof in the Comic Book Versus Forum.

An obscure interview given by someone involved in a story arc is not proof to refute feats. Neither is a random post by a supposed writer on a message board, blogs, tweets, etc. There have been too many of these so called interviews which go against what's shown on panel. Especially when there is no dialogue to refute what's happening on panel. Most writers are clear with the intentions of the plot and story arc.

This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed.

No Mentioning Events of PIS
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

Concerning Superspeed
It's said that the speed of thought is about 30 m/s.
Note that it's meters per second, not miles
Reference:http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/DavidParizh.shtml
(Now this isn't in stone, if you feel you know something that you believe is better, then go with it).

Amendment:

Concerning the Battlefield
Unless otherwise stated by the thread originator, the standard distance between combatants will be .5 kilometers in line of sight at the onset of battle, and there will be an implied "buzz" to signify the onset of battle. It will be assumed combatants are primed to go at the gun.

Also, all characters, regardless of where the fight takes place, or what universe/medium they are native to, will have full access to their abilities at optimum efficiency as they are depicted in their native universes. It will be assumed that each character fights as they are normally presented regardless of battle locale. This means that, for example, Flash will in fact have SpeedForce abilities if the battle took place in Marvel Manhattan. Battles will always take place on an assumed equal playing field.

Unless otherwise specified in the OP, the default battlefield will be a completely flat and featureless plain that stretches from horizon to horizon, with no mountains, forests, cliffs, valleys, rivers, lakes, etc. The only 'feature' of note is the ground beneath the characters' feet. But as mentioned above: it is still always assumed that a character's base powers are active and working to their optimum efficiency in versus matches, therefore this default battlefield would essentially morph to accommodate the characters' powers when need be.

Concerning Threads
There have been too many thread starters trying to change stipulations once the thread has advanced. This isn't allowed.

There are two things which can happen:
1) If the thread hasn't gone too far, past the first 2-3 pages, then PM a mod to edit the opening post to make the desired changes.

2) The original thread can be closed and a new thread made.

This is to avoid confusion and arguing in a thread. People will read the opening post more than they'll search through a 10 page thread to see where stipulations were changed.

Also, if you make a thread which needs edited due to spelling, grammar, etc then PM a mod for the correction.

Thank you and enjoy. [/B]

Originally posted by -Pr-
[B]Clarification of CIS

Ok people, here are the finalised rules as regards PIS, CIS, and everything related to it.

PIS is, as always, off unless the thread starter says it's ON.

CIS, as was said before, is now a more diverse term, but is not as vague as before.

While CIS still exists in the form of characters like Rhino (who are just too stupid to know better), it also exists in one other form.

This is known as Character Inhibited Power. This applies to characters that have intelligence, like the Silver Surfer, Superman, and so on and so forth.

As Bada said:

"It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold."

What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.

In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:

The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience

Those four are key.

Example:

If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.

MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.

However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.

Examples:

Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.

Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.

It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET. [/B]

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't see why it wouldn't account for offense as well as defence. It's just that most superheroes don't throw the first punch, so the focus was on that initial "hero getting attacked by the villain" thing.

As long as it makes sense for the character to do something from what we perceive is their POV, there's no reason why they couldn't do it.

Originally posted by Galan007
👆

I would also add that if the thread starter doesn't want certain abilities/tactics to be used in their thread, all they have to do is specify such in the OP. Problem solved.

We cannot possibly account for every shred of ridiculous BS that certain people might try to argue in threads. All we can do is make blanket rules/generalizations and hope that everyone is adult enough to understand their purpose.

Anyway that's my two cents, you guys make of it what you will.

At the end of the day, we are debating over the hypothetical situation of who would win between two fictional characters, and now, we are debating over how we should debate those debates...

I propose we can't correctly have this debate until we establish firm rules. First off, Leo has to establish whether or not we can consider Poster Induced Stupidity. Can we adequately discuss whether or not we are debating "full-capacity" if we are complaining that we are using one kind of power as the most common example? Finally, in conclusion, I rest my case. smoke

Now that speed is like, so last week...

Let's debate intelligence.

I think versatility plus intelligence should be discussed. So, has a rule been made that we debate speed as the first line of defense and can not use on panel evidence against this? Too much to read through.

Originally posted by carver9
I think versatility plus intelligence should be discussed. So, has a rule been made that we debate speed as the first line of defense and can not use on panel evidence against this? Too much to read through.

I think you should read at least the last page. They're vital forum rules, after all.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think you should read at least the last page. They're vital forum rules, after all.

Ahhhhhh, gotcha. With that said, this style of debating goes completely against the way I debate. Holla.