Drag Queens being Brought to Public Schools to read to kids

Originally posted by Surtur
Yeah mentally ill people are qualified to understand and make those choices. Yup yup.

Mentally ill people make choices for themselves all the time. As noted, PTSD is pretty high in US vets; they make choices about their own lives every day; yet here you are not harping on them.

You also coveniently ignored that before a trans person is allowed to go through with genital altering surgery a good length of time has to pass and they need written consent from two psychologists (who I assume are not mentally ill).

Originally posted by Robtard
Mentally ill people make choices for themselves all the time. As noted, PTSD is pretty high in US vets; they make choices about their own lives every day; yet here you are not harping on them.

You also coveniently ignored that before a trans person is allowed to go through with genital altering surgery a good length of time has to pass and they need written consent from two psychologists (who I assume are not mentally ill).

And if the mental illness is encouraged the entire time I don't see why this matters. So it's not that I ignored it, I deemed it irrelevant.

I'd wonder how many trannies killed themselves after getting doctors to sign off on their shit. Oh wait, the suicide rate doesn't change much *after* transition.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Assuming that the stat of extraordinarily high attempted suicide rate among trans community is true, isn't it a danger to themselves to give them highly lethal weapons and to push them into highly stressful and traumatizing situations?

white men accounted for almost 80% of suicide deaths in 2017. With more than half of all suicide deaths coming from fire arms.

The age-adjusted suicide rate in 2017 was 14.0 per 100,000 individuals.
The rate of suicide is highest in middle-age white men in particular.
In 2017, men died by suicide 3.54x more often than women.
On average, there are 129 suicides per day.
White males accounted for 77.97% of suicide deaths in 2017.
In 2017, firearms accounted for 50.57% of all suicide deaths.

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

Should we disallow middle aged white men from the military and/or law enforcement due to them being far more likely to kill themselves and will most likely do it with a gun?

In my opinion if they pass the same physical and mental evaluation as everyone else then let them in. Its a slippery slope when u stop using an individuals own merits to judge them by and start generalizing them based off of what demographic they belong to.

Originally posted by Surtur
And if the mental illness is encouraged the entire time I don't see why this matters. So it's not that I ignored it, I deemed it irrelevant.

I'd wonder how many trannies killed themselves after getting doctors to sign off on their shit. Oh wait, the suicide rate doesn't change much *after* transition.

Charming.

Could that maybe have anything to do with pre and post-op trans people still being viewed as 'sick', 'disgusting', 'perverted' etc. by society** and people like you just the same?

**I refer back to my earlier post and links (which you dodged) which shows how a group if viewed negatively by society can affect rates of suicide.

Originally posted by Raptor22
Honestly, it just might be. But how far down the rabbit hole should we go and where do we draw the line?

white men accounted for almost 80% of suicide deaths in 2017. With more than half of all suicide deaths coming from fire arms.

The age-adjusted suicide rate in 2017 was 14.0 per 100,000 individuals.
The rate of suicide is highest in middle-age white men in particular.
In 2017, men died by suicide 3.54x more often than women.
On average, there are 129 suicides per day.
White males accounted for 77.97% of suicide deaths in 2017.
In 2017, firearms accounted for 50.57% of all suicide deaths.

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

Should we disallow middle aged white men from the military and/or law enforcement due to them being far more likely to kill themselves and will most likely do it with a gun?

In my opinion if they pass the same physical and mental evaluation as everyone else then let them in. Its a slippery slope when u stop using an individuals own merits to judge them by and start generalizing them based off of what demographic they belong to.

What is the suicide rate (not the quantity, but the rate) of trans vs middle-aged white male by comparison?

Also, are middle aged white men the primary recruitment candidates for military service?

Also, here is a rather interesting stat:

Based on the 2017 National Survey of Drug Use and Mental Health it is estimated that 0.6 percent of the adults aged 18 or older made at least one suicide attempt. This translates to approximately 1.4 million adults. Adult females reported a suicide attempt 1.4 times as often as males. Further breakdown by gender and race are not available.

Women attempt suicide more than men, but men are more successful it looks like.

From the above, we can more or less extract the male suicide rate vs trans. But I'm too drunk and sleepy to math right now.

At 0.6% suicide attempt rate averaged among all genders, and the trans suicide attempt rate being at 40%, don't you think there is an order of magnitude difference here?

I'd imagine men are more successful, because they just hang themselves or blow their brains out.

That's a lot more of a such thing checkout then cutting your wrist or taking a bottle of pills (And thank god for that, I speak from experience.)

Originally posted by Nibedicus
What is the suicide rate (not the quantity, but the rate) of trans vs middle-aged white male by comparison?

Also, are middle aged white men the primary recruitment candidates for military service?

Also, here is a rather interesting stat:

Based on the 2017 National Survey of Drug Use and Mental Health it is estimated that 0.6 percent of the adults aged 18 or older made at least one suicide attempt. This translates to approximately 1.4 million adults. Adult females reported a suicide attempt 1.4 times as often as males. Further breakdown by gender and race are not available.

Women attempt suicide more than men, but men are more successful it looks like.

From the above, we can more or less extract the male suicide rate vs trans. But I'm too drunk and sleepy to math right now.

At 0.6% suicide attempt rate averaged among all genders, and the trans suicide attempt rate being at 40%, don't you think there is an order of magnitude difference here?

325 mil us citizens

I got .6 for % of u.s transgender citizens thru google

Came up with 19.5 mil trans

Subtracted 19.5 form 325 mil to get 306 mil (rounded for my own simplicity) non trans

306 mil at a .6 suicide rate came to 18.3 mil suicide attempts for non trans

19.5 mil trans at a 40% suicide rate i got 7.8 mil trans suicide attempts

From my math i got if we let every trans and non trans person in the military and paired them each up with someone randomly you would be more than twice as likely to be paired with a suicidal non trans than a suicidal trans.

with thay being said, my numbers or figuring could be off. Its been a long day and im trying to bang this out while making dinner. So like i said before id suggest dbl checking.

Looking back over it, i did my calcs for entire population not just adults 18 or over. Not sure if thats what u wanted.

Do u know if the 40% suicide rate amongst trans were using is for minors, adults or both combined?

Originally posted by Raptor22
some good points. Here are the #'s i came up with. (My maths a bit rusty so it might be a good idea to dbl check them.)

325 mil us citizens

I got .6 for % of u.s transgender citizens thru google

Came up with 19.5 mil trans

Subtracted 19.5 form 325 mil to get 306 mil (rounded for my own simplicity) non trans

306 mil at a .6 suicide rate came to 18.3 mil suicide attempts for non trans

19.5 mil trans at a 40% suicide rate i got 7.8 mil trans suicide attempts

From my math i got if we let every trans and non trans person in the military and paired them each up with someone randomly you would be more than twice as likely to be paired with a suicidal non trans than a suicidal trans.

with thay being said, my numbers or figuring could be off. Its been a long day and im trying to bang this out while making dinner. So like i said before id suggest dbl checking.

Looking back over it, i did my calcs for entire population not just adults 18 or over. Not sure if thats what u wanted.

Do u know if the 40% suicide rate amongst trans were using is for minors, adults or both combined?

Your logic is flawed, though. We do not assess risk via total number, we assess it thru rates. That is because we need to look at the percentages when assessing risk factors.

A single trans individual is dozens of times more likely to attempt suicide (again, if numbers are true) than any other demographic, so there is logic in preventing them from being put into highly stressful and traumatic situations while in possession of lethal weapons.

Originally posted by Raptor22
some good points. Here are the #'s i came up with. (My maths a bit rusty so it might be a good idea to dbl check them.)

325 mil us citizens

I got .6 for % of u.s transgender citizens thru google

Came up with 19.5 mil trans

Subtracted 19.5 form 325 mil to get 306 mil (rounded for my own simplicity) non trans

306 mil at a .6 suicide rate came to 18.3 mil suicide attempts for non trans

19.5 mil trans at a 40% suicide rate i got 7.8 mil trans suicide attempts

From my math i got if we let every trans and non trans person in the military and paired them each up with someone randomly you would be more than twice as likely to be paired with a suicidal non trans than a suicidal trans.

with thay being said, my numbers or figuring could be off. Its been a long day and im trying to bang this out while making dinner. So like i said before id suggest dbl checking.

Looking back over it, i did my calcs for entire population not just adults 18 or over. Not sure if thats what u wanted.

Do u know if the 40% suicide rate amongst trans were using is for minors, adults or both combined?

As Nib has pointed out, That isn't how math works.

Originally posted by Raptor22
some good points. Here are the #'s i came up with. (My maths a bit rusty so it might be a good idea to dbl check them.)

325 mil us citizens

I got .6 for % of u.s transgender citizens thru google

Came up with 19.5 mil trans

Subtracted 19.5 form 325 mil to get 306 mil (rounded for my own simplicity) non trans

306 mil at a .6 suicide rate came to 18.3 mil suicide attempts for non trans

19.5 mil trans at a 40% suicide rate i got 7.8 mil trans suicide attempts

From my math i got if we let every trans and non trans person in the military and paired them each up with someone randomly you would be more than twice as likely to be paired with a suicidal non trans than a suicidal trans.

with thay being said, my numbers or figuring could be off. Its been a long day and im trying to bang this out while making dinner. So like i said before id suggest dbl checking.

Looking back over it, i did my calcs for entire population not just adults 18 or over. Not sure if thats what u wanted.

Do u know if the 40% suicide rate amongst trans were using is for minors, adults or both combined?

Your math is way off, there isn’t 20 million trans people in America nd there isn’t 7.8 million trans suicide attempts.

Your either deliberately wrong or honesty wrong either way your wrong.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Your logic is flawed, though. We do not assess risk via total number, we assess it thru rates. That is because we need to look at the percentages when assessing risk factors.

A single trans individual is dozens of times more likely to attempt suicide (again, if numbers are true) than any other demographic, so there is logic in preventing them from being put into highly stressful and traumatic situations while in possession of lethal weapons.

My point was directed at ur post -

"Assuming that the stat of extraordinarily high attempted suicide rate among trans community is true, isn't it a danger to themselves to give them highly lethal weapons and to push them into highly stressful and traumatizing situations?"

Which is why i included police officers due to the high amount of middle aged white men who are given lethal weapons and work everyday in highly stressful and traumatizing situations.

So just like ur logic of-

"A single trans individual is dozens of times more likely to attempt suicide (again, if numbers are true) than any other demographic, so there is logic in preventing them from being put into highly stressful and traumatic situations while in possession of lethal weapons."

A single middle aged white male is overwhelmingly more likely to commit suicide than any other age/race demographic. To the point wher they are almost 4 times more likely to kill themselves than white women plus the men and women of every other race combined.

Should we keep letting middle aged white men continue to enforce the law with their guns? Or is there logic in preventing them from being put into highly stressful and traumatic situations while in possession of lethal weapons?

@broly

Yep i see what i did.

Since i was doing it in my head i for some reason factored it for 6.0% instead of 0.6

Not sure how u could consider me trying to be deceptive there. One would think me explaining how i was dividing my attention while doing it and telling Nib not once but twice that it would be a good idea to dbl check it would hint towards it being an honest mistake. But hey i guess the mind sees what the mind wants.

Also my mistake greatly inflated the number of trans and trans suicides which went against my point, so not sure why u would think i would intentionally do that.

Originally posted by Raptor22
i was just trying to give u the numbers i thought u were asking for in ur questions. Which factored in things like women and other genders which was a bit distant from my point. Which was focusing on middle aged white men and the overwhelming suicide numbers for them.

My point was directed at ur post -

"Assuming that the stat of extraordinarily high attempted suicide rate among trans community is true, isn't it a danger to themselves to give them highly lethal weapons and to push them into highly stressful and traumatizing situations?"

Which is why i included police officers due to the high amount of middle aged white men who are given lethal weapons and work everyday in highly stressful and traumatizing situations.

So just like ur logic of-

"A single trans individual is dozens of times more likely to attempt suicide (again, if numbers are true) than any other demographic, so there is logic in preventing them from being put into highly stressful and traumatic situations while in possession of lethal weapons."

A single middle aged white male is overwhelmingly more likely to commit suicide than any other age/race demographic. To the point wher they are almost 4 times more likely to kill themselves than white women plus the men and women of every other race combined.

Should we keep letting middle aged white men continue to enforce the law with their guns? Or is there logic in preventing them from being put into highly stressful and traumatic situations while in possession of lethal weapons?

Dude. You’re wayyyy off in your logic here. I feel that you might not properly understand the mechanics of statistics here.

A single male (your study, didn’t provide stats for white middle ages males, just that there are higher # of them compared to others) might be 4x more likely to succesfully carry out suicide than a female (although they are less likely to attempt it), but when the average number between sex demographics is 14 in 100,000 and the attempt rate is at 0.6%, then that number doesn’t look all that high. Compared to a single trans individual that has an attempt of 40%, we are comparing orders of magnitutudes that aren’t even close.

We don’t look at total quantity here (because lower rates but higher population would of course generate higher total occurences). Risk factors are based on the individual. And risk of suicide is a risk to the individual and not to others.

And while men are more successful than women, women are more likely to attempt suicide. Adding a firearm would increase success rates amongst attempts (especially since it is the most used method for succesful suicides).

Originally posted by Raptor22
@broly

Yep i see what i did.

Since i was doing it in my head i for some reason factored it for 6.0% instead of 0.6

Not sure how u could consider me trying to be deceptive there. One would think me explaining how i was dividing my attention while doing it and telling Nib not once but twice that it would be a good idea to dbl check it would hint towards it being an honest mistake. But hey i guess the mind sees what the mind wants.

Also my mistake greatly inflated the number of trans and trans suicides which went against my point, so not sure why u would think i would intentionally do that.

Thanks👆

Think you guys need to lay off the dead tranny talk unless you want Backfire coming in and masturbating everywhere.

@nib

My logic may be off (its happened before) but i think were on 2 different pages. Im trying to show that u can isolate a single group such as trans or middle age white dudes etc.. and when compared to the general population or the average u can make them look bad (some worse than others admittedly).

U can do it with anythig from race, religion, gender, politics etc... There will be groups from one extreme to another, with some groups with far higer percentages in things like suicide or murder rates etc... than others at the low end of the spectrum.

U guys keep saying that the 40% amongst trans is too high. I think its pretty damn high myself, and clearly not a good indicator.

But my original question remains the same. When u go down that rabbit hole, where do u draw the line? Is there one?

U guys are the ones saying there should be limits, and restrictions, and special rules for special groups. Im not arguing X group should be allowed and Y group shouldnt. Im just a guy trying to figure out what the parameters are for these rules that people are suggesting/defending being imposed. What % in ur opinion is too much and what would be low enough to be deemed acceptably safe for themselves and/or others.

If another group/sub group falls within these parameters would u be ok with imposing the same limits on them based on their religion, race, political affiliation?

I didnt ask these questions to someone like Broly becasue i would just get something like - dur 40% is too high if u dont think that ur a moron.

I asked u because i wasnt looking as much for an argument or back and forth spat, as i was looking for someone who is for implementing these restrictions, to give me what they considered reasonable parameters. Im genuinely curious in what u think.

Originally posted by Raptor22
@nib

My logic may be off (its happened before) but i think were on 2 different pages. Im trying to show that u can isolate a single group such as trans or middle age white dudes etc.. and when compared to the general population or the average u can make them look bad (some worse than others admittedly).

U can do it with anythig from race, religion, gender, politics etc... There will be groups from one extreme to another, with some groups with far higer percentages in things like suicide or murder rates etc... than others at the low end of the spectrum.

U guys keep saying that the 40% amongst trans is too high. I think its pretty damn high myself, and clearly not a good indicator.

But my original question remains the same. When u go down that rabbit hole, where do u draw the line? Is there one?

U guys are the ones saying there should be limits, and restrictions, and special rules for special groups. Im not arguing X group should be allowed and Y group shouldnt. Im just a guy trying to figure out what the parameters are for these rules that people are suggesting/defending being imposed. What % in ur opinion is too much and what would be low enough to be deemed acceptably safe for themselves and/or others.

If another group/sub group falls within these parameters would u be ok with imposing the same limits on them based on their religion, race, political affiliation?

I didnt ask these questions to someone like Broly becasue i would just get something like - dur 40% is too high if u dont think that ur a moron.

I asked u because i wasnt looking as much for an argument or back and forth spat, as i was looking for someone who is for implementing these restrictions, to give me what they considered reasonable parameters. Im genuinely curious in what u think.

The very premise of risk management is to determine within the context of what an organization/entity is and what its goals and challenges are and to determines what is acceptable chances or not. This sensitivity for risk management is further exacerbated when life and limb is at stake.

You are also asking the wrong question as I don’t get to decide what the reasonable parameters are, the military does. If they feel that they need to be picky in their selection process because lives are at risk, I feel that they have a right to be. And the metrics they use should be based on their experience/knowledge of what the stresses of war are and what risks they are willing to take within that experience/knowledge base for as long as that metric applies to all.

The question I sought to ask here was if the selectiveness against trans applicants is based solely in deep seated prejudice or is there actual logic behind it. And I feel like there does seem like is foundation of logic behind it if trans individuals have a vastly disproportionate chance of attempting suicide as that is not something you would want in your armed forces granted the stresses and trauma they will undergo and the fact that they are carrying highly lethal weaponry.

Originally posted by Surtur
Oh wait, the suicide rate doesn't change much *after* transition.

Your statistics aren't technically inaccurate, but post-transition suicide happens for many reasons not related to gender dysphoria. Hell, even pre-transition suicide attempts aren't always related to GD.

The conclusion of several surveys was that the major cause of the high suicide rates was frequent marginalization, discrimination, being ostracized, feelings of anxiety/stress/pressure etc. And regardless of how much the statistics changed, they did still change post-transition. Even a small percantage of change can mean a lot of lives saved.

Drag queens should and have the right to have story time at schools.

@Nib

U might not get to decide but u can still have an opinion.

Was it a military decision? Or from the President and the courts?

Either way i find it hard to believe that u would simply put ur blind trust in the military without question. A cpl months ago did u feel trans should be allowed to serve because the military decided it was ok? If it gets reversed in a few months or a year will that change ur mind again?

Also i may have missed it but was the suicide rate amongst trans or any metric for it ever mentioned as a reason for this decision by either the courts, president, or military? All ive found are money related grievances. Such as not wanting to pay for hormones or meds.

"Mr. Trump made the declaration on Twitter, saying that American forces could not afford the “tremendous medical costs and disruption” of transgender service members."

Or things like-

"The president, Ms. Sanders said, had concluded that allowing transgender people to serve openly “erodes military readiness and unit cohesion, and made the decision based on that.”

Which seems to address this question quite nicely.

"The question I sought to ask here was if the selectiveness against trans applicants is based solely in deep seated prejudice" -Nib

Even tho a study commissioned by the Pentagon says-

"Citing research into other countries that allow transgender people to serve, the study projected “little or no impact on unit cohesion, operational effectiveness or readiness” in the United States."

And recomended -

"Recommendations
DoD should ensure strong leadership and identify and communicate the benefits of an inclusive and diverse workforce to successfully implement a policy change and successfully integrate openly serving transgender service members into the force."

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1530.html

As far as i can tell the supposed reason is financial (even tho the effect seems to be minimal) and apparently unit cohesion (which would most likely be caused by deep seated prejudice).

Has anyone official (not on KMC) been throwing around this 40% suicide rate as a reason?