Captain America vs Grant Ward

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Logic>>>your make ups.

The site clearly states that Bucky was a WELL TRAINED Soldier. Again, considering his condition prior to recruitment by Hydra, he must have been valuable.

Winter Soldier Programme:

Again, the Winter Soldier Programme was applied to only the best...a program Bucky was chosen to undergo.

Stop running, and prove that Ward is worthy. Otherwise, you've lost this already.

Well trained != Best

Again, either prove your claim or admit you were wrong.

Stop pretending that a quote for the winter soldiers of 1991 is applicable to the Winter Soldier of WW2.

When did I claim Ward was worthy?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Well trained != Best

Again, either prove your claim or admit you were wrong.

Stop pretending that a quote for the winter soldiers of 1991 is applicable to the Winter Soldier of WW2.

When did I claim Ward was worthy?

I never said Bucky was the best prior to becoming the WS, I said he was one of the best.

But, for the sake of debating, I concede. Bucky wasn't the best prior to his training after becoming the WS.

Then you concede that Bucky> Ward.

Thanks. It's called sacrificing the Queen.

Check mate.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I never said Bucky was the best prior to becoming the WS, I said he was one of the best.

But, for the sake of debating, I concede. Bucky wasn't the best prior to his training after becoming the WS.

Then you concede that Bucky> Ward.

Thanks. It's called sacrificing the Queen.

Check mate.

I've always said that Bucky (w/ enhancements) was better than Ward. So nothing new there.

Now, where did I say Ward was Hydra's top agent?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1.) Fallacy. No proof that Ward is better than a USA's elites.
2.) Bucky> Hydra's elites> Ward.

1). The proof is in his feats. You know his Non-Enhanced feats.

2). Because Bucky is enhanced. I dont get whats so hard for you to grasp.

Im still awaiting your proof that Cap is a USA Elite level without enhancements.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I've always said that Bucky (w/ enhancements) was better than Ward. So nothing new there.

Now, where did I say Ward was Hydra's top agent?

The other Winter Soldiers were called to be the best amongst Hydra. Prove that Grant is is as good as them.

Because Bucky was better than them. 😂

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The other Winter Soldiers were called to be the best amongst Hydra. Prove that Grant is is as good as them.

Because Bucky was better than them. 😂

Bucky got his ass handed to him by one of the newer Winter Soldiers. Your premise is completely bogus.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Bucky got his ass handed to him by one of the newer Winter Soldiers. Your premise is completely bogus.

The other soldiers syrum was different. They were more enhanced. But this drove them insane, reason why they were frozen.

Still, Bucky as as good as them. And again, Hydra considers him a weapon.

You still need to prove that Ward can reach the level of the other soldiers.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The other soldiers syrum was different. They were more enhanced. But this drove them insane, reason why they were frozen.

Still, Bucky as as good as them. And again, Hydra considers him a weapon.

You still need to prove that Ward can reach the level of the other soldiers.

So now you're saying Bucky isn't better but is instead just as good as them eh?

Prove that Bucky was as good as them.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So now you're saying Bucky isn't better but is instead just as good as them eh?

Prove that Bucky was as good as them.

trying to run from the burden of prood is pointless. You've failed to prove Grant is admissable for the WS programme.

He is just another worker in the tentacles of Hydra.

You've lost this.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
trying to run from the burden of prood is pointless. You've failed to prove Grant is admissable for the WS programme.

He is just another worker in the tentacles of Hydra.

You've lost this.

I never claimed Grant was better than the other Winter Soldiers. I have nothing to prove.

You claimed Bucky was better than them, so prove it.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I never claimed Grant was better than the other Winter Soldiers. I have nothing to prove.

You claimed Bucky was better than them, so prove it.

Fine. Then you concede to the debate. Ward is not to Bucky's level.

Cap demolishes. You were wrong.

/thread.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
.

Fine. Then you concede to the debate. Ward is not to Bucky's level.

Cap demolishes. You were wrong.

/thread.

So you admit you were mistaken in claiming Bucky was better than the other Winter Soldiers?

Grant is very skilled, as most agents at his level are. Forget the Hydra angle a second as we don't need to consider what Ward may have learned with them or how he'd fight because he is or isn't a bad guy.

My vote: Cap & Ward would be about matched in experience and skill. If Steve hasn't studied SHIELD combat training but his opponent has been able to study his h2h methods through many years of live film, and observing the Avengers around agency HQ; they've got a good chance.

(Nobody beats Bucky Barnes. Not in 1941. Absolutely not now. Yikes.)

Didn’t Bucky get recruited because of his relationship with Cap being at the forefront?

Bucky got clowned by a newer WS.

Originally posted by SquallX
Didn’t Bucky get recruited because of his relationship with Cap being at the forefront?

Nah, they captured a bunch of soldiers in TFA and started experimenting on them. Bucky was just the one that managed to survive (Cap still found him strapped to a lab table when he rescued them). And then they completed the process after recovering him after the events of that film.

And that scene with the other Winter Soldiers was weird. Because when they were sparring, the one seemed to hold a clear edge over him, even overpowering his metal arm in a way suitless BP tried and failed, but when things all went to hell and one of the others (the token black Winter Soldier) tried to get in the way of him and the doc he was protecting he pretty much swatted him aside like a child. But then the Russos are kinda terribly when it comes to power level consistency.

Meant to write lab chair. Not lab table. Bucky was still mostly out of it from whatever they were giving him as well. And terrible. Not terribly. But seriously, the Russos suck at depicting consistent power levels.

Yeah power levels was whatever they feel like at the moment.
Well there was one thing they had consistent. Cap was their favorite, followed by WS and BW, then the comedy guys Spidey and Scott, then Falcon. If anyone got to look good it was them in that order, even at others expense. The rest was tossup.
Oh, and they were throughly uninterested in the Hulk and just wanted Banner.

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
Yeah power levels was whatever they feel like at the moment.
Well there was one thing they had consistent. Cap was their favorite, followed by WS and BW, then the comedy guys Spidey and Scott, then Falcon. If anyone got to look good it was them in that order, even at others expense. The rest was tossup.
Oh, and they were throughly uninterested in the Hulk and just wanted Banner.

They didn't seem to care for Thor much either. Even with Infinity War, where he had some great moments, he also had a number of moments where he looked stupid, like the eyeball that was in Rocket's butt bit. And he was pretty much a joke character in Endgame. They basically swapped his and Valkyrie's character from Ragnarok, turning him into the hopeless drunk and her into the noble warrior and leader.

But I rewatched that Winter Soldier training sequence from CW and it's even worse than I remembered. The one Winter Soldier dodges or counters virtually all of Bucky's hits, manhandles him and puts him on his ass. But like 20 seconds later, the next Winter Soldier that gets in his way literally couldn't even delay him for one full second. Even if someone wants to argue that Bucky wasn't taking the first fight as seriously, it being a training exercise, that's still a ridiculous difference.

Maybe the Russos watch a lot of CW DC stuff. 😄

CW shows atleast have few episodes before things start getting muddled. And imo the Winter Soldier thing can be explained away as it being not the same ascthe first guy plus since he was just knocked away. You can see him fighting the guards if you pay attentions