Ian asked about Mace vs Sidious

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
The ability to channel Sith Lightning back into the user AKA the [B]Superconducting-Loop is a technique unique to Vapaad only.

The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming themselves into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.

- Also, how is Palpatine going to throw a fight when he's being blasted with supposedly lethal-amounts of Sith Lightning?

That's like allowing someone to shoot you in the face multiple times in order to win a gun duel.

Mace had him beat. Pure and simple. Palpatine needed Anakin to intervene, or he was dead.

Mace won. [/B]

To be honest, they never interpreted Vaapad as the technique which allowed Windu to deflect Sidious' Force lightning. They thought it as being a Force power mirror. They thought the only reason Windu was fast as Palpatine in the Revenge Of The Sith novel is due to Vaapad.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
To be honest, they never interpreted Vaapad as the technique which allowed Windu to deflect Sidious' Force lightning. They thought it as being a Force power mirror. They thought the only reason Windu was fast as Palpatine in the Revenge Of The Sith novel is due to Vaapad.

The wiki and Novelization actually both describe Vapaad as the ability to channel Dark Side energy through Mace and back into the target:

He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But- Neither did he have power over it. Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standign wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shilds, sliced into segments that whriled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hand, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind; a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Vapaad was indeed the sole reason for Mace to channel Sidious's Sith Lightning back into him.

- Even Yoda can't do that against Sidious with a lightsaber:

Only Mace and his Vapaad can:

I know. I just said that most fans think Vaapad is an universal Force power mirror. Not that it is particularly related to Force lightning based attacks.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
The wiki and Novelization actually both describe Vapaad as the ability to channel Dark Side energy through Mace and back into the target:

He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But- Neither did he have power over it. Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standign wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shilds, sliced into segments that whriled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hand, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. [B]Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind; a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Vapaad was indeed the sole reason for Mace to channel Sidious's Sith Lightning back into him.

- Even Yoda can't do that against Sidious with a lightsaber:

Only Mace and his Vapaad can:
[/B]

That's because Yoda got caught flat footed.

"YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber."

The screenplay clearly shows Yoda as capable of deflecting Sidious' lightning.

"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed."

^ Yeah the initial blast pushed Mace back as well... Difference was Yoda was on the edge of the senate pod, so had to let his Saber go.

That said, Yoda still deflected the Lightning with his hands.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Yeah the initial blast pushed Mace back as well... Difference was Yoda was on the edge of the senate pod, so had to let his Saber go.

That said, Yoda still deflected the Lightning with his hands.

And Yoda's positioning on the pod lost him the fight. Even then, Sidious got sent back as well.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Yeah the initial blast pushed Mace back as well... Difference was Yoda was on the edge of the senate pod, so had to let his Saber go.

That said, Yoda still deflected the Lightning with his hands.

Mace was fighting on a slippery ledge in a thunderstorm and Sidious's Lightning still couldn't do anything to him.

When Yoda tried to deflect Sidious's Lightning with his hands, Yoda got ragdolled.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
And Yoda's positioning on the pod lost him the fight. Even then, Sidious got sent back as well.

In retrospect, it's really the fact that Yoda failed to deflect Sidious's Lightning that lost him the fight.

If Yoda had been able to bounce Sidious Lightning into him like Mace could:

He'd have won.

Originally posted by Lord Stark

The screenplay clearly shows Yoda as capable of deflecting Sidious' lightning.

Meanwhile the film also shows Mace deflect Sidious's Lighting on a ledge in a thunderstorm - and unlike Yoda - Sidious's Lightning can't touch Mace.

Again - Mace is immune to that - thanks to Vapaad.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's because Yoda got caught flat footed.

"YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber."

Nice try - but whatever screenplay you're using doesn't match what's in the film:

In the film, Yoda already had his feet planted on the Podium and was balanced - but Mace Windu was fighting on a slipperly ledge in a windy thunderstorm:

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hand, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind; a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

So Yoda didn't get caught flat-footed.

Mace was deflecting Sidious's lightning on a slippery ledge in the wind and rain and Sidious Lightning still couldn't touch him.

Yoda was normally-positioned when Sidious fired his Lightning - but Yoda can't redirect Sidious's Lightning like Mace can.

And when Yoda used his hands to try to redirect the Lightning - Yoda got touched and blasted by it.

So yes, even Yoda with a lightsaber or no lightsaber cannot deflect Sidious's Lightning successfully like Mace can:

Yoda lost because he couldn't deflect Sidious's lightning with a lightsaber or without one - and Mace won because he could.

Didn't Yoda absorb Dooku's Force lightning blast and directed it back at him?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I know. I just said that most fans think Vaapad is an universal Force power mirror. Not that it is particularly related to Force lightning based attacks.

You are correct that Vapaad is a Force mirror - that is good analogy.

However Vapaad is related to channeling and redirecting Dark Side energy - including Lightning-based attacks.

It's so effective that Sidious's Lightning can't even touch Mace.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Didn't Yoda absorb Dooku's Force lightning blast and directed it back at him?

Yes he did.

But Sidious's Lightning is far more powerful than Dooku's - and Sidious's Lightning was too much for Yoda to handle.

Only Mace was capable of successfully deflecting Sidious's Lightning back into him.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Yes he did.

But Sidious's Lightning is far more powerful than Dooku's - and Sidious's Lightning was too much for Yoda to handle.

Only Mace was capable of successfully deflecting Sidious's Lightning back into him.

I see. You are talking about unlimited Force lightning torrents being the only solution to reflect with Vaapad.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I see. You are talking about unlimited Force lightning torrents being the only solution to reflect with Vaapad.

Exactly - Vapaad was Mace's answer to that whole problem.

Once Mace knew that the Sith had returned, he specifically engineered Vapaad as the means of stopping them.

And he would have done that, too - had it not been for Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Mace was fighting on a slippery ledge in a thunderstorm and Sidious's Lightning still couldn't do anything to him.

Their fight took place indoors and not slippery (in the film).

I wouldnt call screaming and struggling against his blade as doing nothing.

Yoda was on the edge of a Senate Pod. Just as the initial blast pushed Mace back, Yoda could have fallen off if he tried to hang on to his Saber.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211

When Yoda tried to deflect Sidious's Lightning with his hands, Yoda got ragdolled.

They were both ragdolled. Point being Yoda didnt even need his Saber to compete against Sids Lightning.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Their fight took place indoors and not slippery (in the film).

It's been implied there was a storm on Coruscant during their duel - even in the RotS video game, too.

When the office window got blown out, the final part of their duel took place on the ledge - where there was wind, apparently rain and a half-kilometer drop next to where Mace was standing - it wasn't all indoors and the implied-storm meant the ledge would be slippery.

Originally posted by Darth Thor

I wouldnt call screaming and struggling against his blade as doing nothing.

Way better than Yoda being tooled, ragdolled and defeated by Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Yoda was on the edge of a Senate Pod. Just as the initial blast pushed Mace back, Yoda could have fallen off if he tried to hang on to his Saber.

Yoda couldn't hang onto his saber because he couldn't handle Sidious's Lightning - Mace could.

Originally posted by Darth Thor

They were both ragdolled. Point being Yoda didnt even need his Saber to compete against Sids Lightning.

Yoda's saber got blasted out of his hands because he couldn't handle Sidious's Lightning, like Mace could.

And when Yoda tried to compete against Sidious's Lightning with his hands - he still lost.

Mace and his Vapaad are clearly superior against Sidious and his Lightning.

for the umpteenth time, vaapaad isn't a thing in the films; its not real. What is real though is Mace being known as Yodas second; Sidious beat Yoda and Mace "beat" Sidious? That can only happen if Sidious threw the fight which makes perfect sense from a storytelling perspective as he needed to force a choice from Anakin

Originally posted by relentless1
for the umpteenth time, vaapaad isn't a thing in the films; its not real. What is real though is Mace being known as Yodas second; Sidious beat Yoda and Mace "beat" Sidious? That can only happen if Sidious threw the fight which makes perfect sense from a storytelling perspective as he needed to force a choice from Anakin

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
The ability to channel Sith Lightning back into the user AKA the [B]Superconducting-Loop is a technique unique to Vapaad only.

The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming themselves into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.

- Also, how is Palpatine going to throw a fight when he's being blasted with supposedly lethal-amounts of Sith Lightning?

That's like allowing someone to shoot you in the face multiple times in order to win a gun duel.

Mace had him beat. Pure and simple. Palpatine needed Anakin to intervene, or he was dead.

Mace won. [/B]

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Exactly - Vapaad was Mace's answer to that whole problem.

Once Mace knew that the Sith had returned, he specifically engineered Vapaad as the means of stopping them.

And he would have done that, too - had it not been for Anakin Skywalker.

Ahsoka Tano isn't a thing in the films - she's not real.

Revenge Of The Sith establishes that Obi-wan Kenobi and General Grevious had never fought each other prior to the Battle Of Utapau.

TCW show directly contradicts that - meaning Ahsoka isn't real.

Meaning that by extension, the Rebels show isn't real, either.

I like how Disney decides to continue the only Star Wars stories that are Non-Canon, besides TOR.