Ian asked about Mace vs Sidious

Originally posted by CaveDude33211

Mace and Yoda are at least equal as swordsmen.

Gillard and Lucas disagree.

Yoda has (somewhat) greater strength in the Force - but Mace has the ability to see and strike Shatterpoints.

Glad you admit Yoda is a more powerful Force User.

Add in Vapaad, and Mace and Yoda are equals - especially since Mace could frankly defeat Sidious - whereas Yoda couldn't.

Given all available evidence, Yoda is superior to Sidious in both sabers and Force Power and only lost due to environmental disadvantages. As for Mace never defeated Sidious in any sense of the word. Yeah sure he disarmed Sidious (whether or not Sidious let him is up for debate but I won't get too much into that now) however it's clear Sidious was still holding him off with Lightning and was on the verge of overpowering him before he pretended to be weak and powerless.

“You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor” - George Lucas.

That suggests either one is capable of defeating him. So the fact that Mace won in 1 particular fight, and Yoda lost in another, should not be used to suggest Mace > Yoda (even against Sidious). Especially when multiple people involved in the films plus movie dialogue made it clear that Mace was under Yoda in both Force power and as a Saber combatant.

^
Perhaps, perhaps not.

Not sure if I am correct, but this Lucas' line was an answer to Knoll's "Look at this - Mace brought the B-team!".
So it might be indeed treat as a statement that is about equality between Sidious and Yoda / Mace, but it as well may just means that both, Yoda and Mace are on mych higher level then any member of B-team or any Jedi overall. And that they can compete with him, hold their own, but in the end, they are not able to defeat him. Or just one of them.
Just like both, Anakin and Obi-Wan could compete with Dooku, as none of them was blitzed by him. But could Obi-Wan defeat him in a single duel? That's debatable.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Gillard and Lucas disagree.

You should pay attention to which movie-timelines you're pulling quotes from:

Nick Gillard : ''We didn't see Mace fighting yet, but we know that he is second only to Yoda...''
Source: Star Wars Episode II: Action Featurette

Later in the Clone Wars, Mace becomes Yoda's equal:

''Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.''
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

And of course Lucas doesn't disagree, either:

“You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor”
- George Lucas.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Glad you admit Yoda is a more powerful Force User.

I consider Yoda to have slightly stronger TK.

But Star Wars says Mace and Yoda are virtually equals:
''A respected Jedi with powers on a par with those venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council, and his wisdom and judgement were legendary.''
Source: Star Wars Fact File Remake #008
And so do I:

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Add in Vapaad, and Mace and Yoda are equals - especially since Mace could frankly defeat Sidious - whereas Yoda couldn't.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Given all available evidence, Yoda is superior to Sidious in both sabers and Force Power and only lost due to environmental disadvantages.

Yoda and Sidious stalemated.

Mace and Sidious didn't stalemate - Mace beat Sidious.

Originally posted by HP Legend
however it's clear Sidious was still holding him off with Lightning and was on the verge of overpowering him

Sidious was getting killed:

Go clean your glasses.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211

Gillard doesn't disagree - Gillard stated Mace was second to Yoda at the beginning of the Clone Wars - not at the end of the Clone Wars when Mace has become more powerful and Yoda's equal.

Not what I was referring to. I was talking about Mace being "an 8 bordering on a 9" on Gillard and Lucas's tiering system compared to Yoda being a 9. It's clear both Gillard and Lucas view Mace as inferior to Yoda in Lightsaber combat. For Force Power, I'll elaborate in a bit.

You should pay attention to which movie-timelines you're pulling quotes from:

Or alternatively, you shouldn't baselessly assume which quotes I'm referring to.

🙂

Later in the Clone Wars, Mace becomes Yoda's equal:

Kek. The quote you brought up is referring to Count Dooku being Mace's equal on neutral ground, not Yoda:

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

-Yoda: Dark Rendevous

And of course Lucas doesn't disagree, either:

The fact that Mace can compete with Sidious doesn't preclude him from being below Yoda.

I consider Yoda to have slightly stronger TK. But Star Wars says Mace and Yoda are virtually equals:

The quote you referenced is in-universe making it more subject to scrutiny and if Yoda is blatantly portrayed as more powerful in other material the quote should be dismissed. Not that Fact File quotes even overrule G-Canon evidence anyway.

Superior?

Well yes I'd say so given according to Gillard and Lucas Yoda is a better saber duellist and there's a comparison between the two in Force Power which clearly demonstrates Yoda is more powerful.

Yoda and Sidious stalemated.

Because of environmental and other circumstantial factors beyond the control of the former as I've explained already in this thread. Yoda proved he was better when he overpowered Sidious in multiple blade locks, pushed him back in sabers, disarmed him and nearly overpowered him in two seperate Force clashes.

Mace and Sidious didn't stalemate - Mace beat Sidious.

Sidious was getting killed:

Yeah Lucas disagrees:

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

-Revenge of the Sith Commentary

Originally posted by HP Legend
Not what I was referring to. I was talking about Mace being "an 8 bordering on a 9" on Gillard and Lucas's tiering system compared to Yoda being a 9. It's clear both Gillard and Lucas view Mace as inferior to Yoda in Lightsaber combat. For Force Power, I'll elaborate in a bit.

No, they don't. 😆 😆 😆

As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten].On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious.
The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:

Ultimately Gillard decided Mace and Yoda are both 9s and that Mace is equal with Sidious.

So does George Lucas:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Originally posted by HP Legend

Or alternatively, you shouldn't baselessly assume which quotes I'm referring to.

Or alternatively, you should still pay attention to where you're pulling your quotes from since you weren't aware of Gillard's final-judgement on Mace's tier-level as being a 9 and equal to Darth Sidious. 😉

Originally posted by HP Legend

Kek. The quote you brought up is referring to Count Dooku being Mace's equal on neutral ground, not Yoda:

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

-Yoda: Dark Rendevous

Kek - actually the quote I brought up implies that Dooku knew that he and Mace were on Yoda's level - implying that Yoda and Mace are also equals. 😉

And Yoda: Dark Rendezvous takes place 19BBY - the very same year that Mace Windu defeats Sidious in combat and Yoda loses to Sidious.

Originally posted by HP Legend

The fact that Mace can compete with Sidious doesn't preclude him from being below Yoda.

As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten].On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious.
The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Originally posted by HP Legend

The quote you referenced is in-universe making it more subject to scrutiny and if Yoda is blatantly portrayed as more powerful in other material the quote should be dismissed. Not that Fact File quotes even overrule G-Canon evidence anyway.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Well yes I'd say so given according to Gillard and Lucas Yoda is a better saber duellist and there's a comparison between the two in Force Power which clearly demonstrates Yoda is more powerful.

Really? Let's review what they have to say on the matter: 😉

As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten].On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious.
The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Nope, according to Gillard and Lucas, Yoda is not the better saber duelist and in fact Yoda and Mace are both equals. 😄

Originally posted by HP Legend

Because of environmental and other circumstantial factors beyond the control of the former as I've explained already in this thread. Yoda proved he was better when he overpowered Sidious in multiple blade locks, pushed him back in sabers, disarmed him and nearly overpowered him in two seperate Force clashes.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Yeah Lucas disagrees:

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

-Revenge of the Sith Commentary

And here's the additional George Lucas commentary that clears up the murkiness of the previous one:

"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness. You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

So according to Nick Gillard and George Lucas, Palpatine didn't throw the fight - Mace won and Yoda and Mace ARE equals.

HP, would you like some mayonnaise with that foot in your mouth? I can give you some of my mayonnaise - and it's non-dairy! 😄 😆

Lol, I'll respond tomorrow or the day after.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211

No, they don't.

Their tiering system says otherwise. 🙂

Ultimately Gillard decided Mace and Yoda are both 9s and that Mace is equal with Sidious.

Gillard didn't decide anything. He originally said Mace was a 9 sure but later clarified Mace was an 8 bordering on a 9 as I already said. He's nearly a 9 and is thus up there with Sidious though he isn't equal with him or Yoda.

Side Note: The fact that Mace, Yoda, and Sidious are on the same tier (if I acknowledge Mace is a 9 even though he isn't) in terms of Lightsaber prowess does not make them equals.

Also, I don't necessarily need the tiering system to put Yoda above Mace given there's already a comparison which puts Yoda ahead of him in sabers anyway. Mace fought Sheev to a standstill and was at an "impasse" with him for a solid minute and only won through using Sheev's fear against him while Yoda legitimately disarmed Sidious in under a minute.

So does George Lucas:

For the last time, Lucas saying both Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious does not make them equals. It only suggests their on a similar level in terms of fighting prowess which is a notion I never contested.

Or alternatively, you should still pay attention to where you're pulling your quotes from since you weren't aware of Gillard's final-judgement on Mace's tier-level as being a 9 and equal to Darth Sidious.

Or alternatively, you should learn to read. 🙂

Kek - actually the quote I brought up implies that Dooku knew that he and Mace were on Yoda's level - implying that Yoda and Mace are also equals.

No, it doesn't. For starters, the quote you brought up is from Yoda's perspective not Dooku's. Secondly I'm not sure where you're getting the idea from that it says Dooku and Mace are on Yoda's level.

Here is the quote:

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

-Yoda: Dark Rendevous

It clearly says that Mace and Dooku are equals and doesn't make a single mention of Yoda being relative to either. Please underline where it implies Mace=Yoda.

And Yoda: Dark Rendezvous takes place 19BBY - the very same year that Mace Windu defeats Sidious in combat and Yoda loses to Sidious.

1. Irrelevant detail I already knew where the quote was from.

2. Lol, imagine ignoring all context to both scenarios. I'm not even going to bother going over it again because it's a waste of time. Just read my previous posts in the thread.

Gonna skip over most of the irrelevant stuff where you bring up the same two statements again to avoid repetition and making these posts longer than they need to be.

The Fact-File had George Lucas's blessing - and even George Lucas agrees that Mace and Yoda are equals.

Proof it had George's blessing? Regardless it's still in-universe and subject to scrutiny.

Yeah - and Mace did all the same things - only difference is - Mace didn't get ragdolled like Yoda did.

1. Mace never overpowered Sidious in a blade lock.

2. Mace did not push Sheev back in sabers. They were at an "impasse" before Mace used Sheev's fear against him. He didn't overpower Sheev through superior technical skill or Force Power.

3. The final Force Clash is brought up again at the end of your post. I'll go over it then.

And here's the additional George Lucas commentary that clears up the murkiness of the previous one:

This doesn't clear anything up. The quote regarding them competing with Sidious has been addressed and the start of the quote doesn't prove your point. It says Mace was winning when Anakin arrived which is a no brainer given Sidious was disarmed and on the floor. However, Sidious recovers with a blast of Lightning and was about to overpower Mace per the novelization before he feigned weakness so he could complete Anakin's fall as George said in both my quote and the quote you provided:

"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness. You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

-George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

This to tie back into my original point is in direct contrast to how Yoda was overpowering Sidious in both their Force Clashes.

To be honest, it could just mean Palpatine lost, but he could have fought from there on, but chose not to.

That does not mean Palpatine was not bested. It just means he still had enough power to carry on the fight.

But then, these ranking systems s***k anyways.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Their tiering system says otherwise.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Yeah, their tiering system doesn't say otherwise - their tiering system says Mace and Yoda are equals. 🙂

Originally posted by HP Legend

Gillard didn't decide anything. He originally said Mace was a 9 sure but later clarified Mace was an 8 bordering on a 9 as I already said. He's nearly a 9 and is thus up there with Sidious though he isn't equal with him or Yoda.

Side Note: The fact that Mace, Yoda, and Sidious are on the same tier (if I acknowledge Mace is a 9 even though he isn't) in terms of Lightsaber prowess does not make them equals.

Also, I don't necessarily need the tiering system to put Yoda above Mace given there's already a comparison which puts Yoda ahead of him in sabers anyway. Mace fought Sheev to a standstill and was at an "impasse" with him for a solid minute and only won through using Sheev's fear against him while Yoda legitimately disarmed Sidious in under a minute.

Gillard ultimately decided that Mace is a 9:
As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten].On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious.
The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:

Gillard says you are wrong.

Also, your opinion means nothing.

And show me where "Yoda legitimately disarmed Sidious in under a minute." 🙂

Mace overpowered Sidious in a blade lock - successfully re-directed his Lightning and had him beaten - while Yoda got sent flying like a ragdoll. 😆

Originally posted by HP Legend

For the last time, Lucas saying both Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious does not make them equals. It only suggests their on a similar level in terms of fighting prowess which is a notion I never contested.

That makes them equals - duh.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Or alternatively, you should learn to read. 🙂

Or alternatively, you should learn to read, since you weren't aware of Gillard's final-judgement on Mace's tier-level as being a 9 and equal to Darth Sidious. 😉

Originally posted by HP Legend

Here is the quote:

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

-Yoda: Dark Rendevous

It clearly says that Mace and Dooku are equals and doesn't make a single mention of Yoda being relative to either. Please underline where it implies Mace=Yoda.

We already know Mace is relative to Yoda, since Mace beats Sidious - whereas Yoda can't. 🙂

Dooku says that Mace is equal to him, and Dooku was already shown to be equal to Yoda as a swordsman in AotC.

So if Dooku is equal to Yoda in speed, and Mace is at least equal to Yoda in speed, if not greater, then they are equals. 😎

Originally posted by HP Legend
Gonna skip over most of the irrelevant stuff where you bring up the same two statements again to avoid repetition and making these posts longer than they need to be.

I could skip over your entire response - since it's pretty much gibberish.

It's already obvious that with Vapaad, Mace and Yoda are equals - you're so rusty with your Star Wars Lore that you didn't even know that Mace overpowers Sidious during their duel. 😆

Originally posted by HP Legend

Proof it had George's blessing? Regardless it's still in-universe and subject to scrutiny.

If it's in Canon, it has George Lucas's blessing.

Originally posted by HP Legend

1. Mace never overpowered Sidious in a blade lock.
2. Mace did not push Sheev back in sabers. They were at an "impasse" before Mace used Sheev's fear against him. He didn't overpower Sheev through superior technical skill or Force Power.
3. The final Force Clash is brought up again at the end of your post. I'll go over it then.

Mace Windu overpowers Darth Sidious in a blade lock.

Wow, HP you are clueless. 😆 😆 😆

Originally posted by HP Legend

This doesn't clear anything up. The quote regarding them competing with Sidious has been addressed and the start of the quote doesn't prove your point. It says Mace was winning when Anakin arrived which is a no brainer given Sidious was disarmed and on the floor. However, Sidious recovers with a blast of Lightning and was about to overpower Mace per the novelization before he feigned weakness so he could complete Anakin's fall as George said in both my quote and the quote you provided:

"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness. You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

-George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Nah - your assertion is that Sidious threw the whole fight.

Now you're admitting Mace disarmed Sidious and had him beaten on the floor.

- Now you're trying to say that Sidious was deliberately having lethal-amounts of Lightning bounced back into his face.

Vapaad already exists for that technique to occur - Sidious getting hit with lethal amounts of Lightning that could kill him wasn't part of the plan - unless you can prove Sidious knew about Vapaad.

Sidious was dying (lethal Lightning) - he just wanted Anakin to intervene.

So Mace with Vapaad is equal to (or greater) than Yoda.

And Mace did indeed defeat Sidious. 🙂

Originally posted by HP Legend

This to tie back into my original point is in direct contrast to how Yoda was overpowering Sidious in both their Force Clashes.

Yoda tried to overpower Sidious with the Force and got ragdolled.

Mace successfully overpowered Sidious with the Force and was killing him.

Apparently simply re-posting your original claim is legitimate evidence...

I'll get down to addressing this next weekend. I don't have the time or energy right now.

Sidious loses?! Are you an idiot?!

Originally posted by relentless1
for the umpteenth time, vaapaad isn't a thing in the films; its not real. What is real though is Mace being known as Yodas second; Sidious beat Yoda and Mace "beat" Sidious? That can only happen if Sidious threw the fight which makes perfect sense from a storytelling perspective as he needed to force a choice from Anakin

Originally posted by gold slorg
the movie goes out of its way to demonstrate Yoda and Sidious as equals, tbh

first Palpatine knocks down Yoda with the Force via sudden attack
then Yoda does the same
then Sidious pushes Yoda back with the pods
then Yoda pushes Sidious back with the pods
then they overpower each other simultaneously with Sidious having a better position

Been working on other posts. I'll get down to a response sometime during the week.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211

Finally got down to responding. This might be my last response on the topic as well because quite frankly I've lost any enthusiasm I had during this debate and I'd rather spend my time doing other things. Anyway enjoy:

Yeah, their tiering system doesn't say otherwise - their tiering system says Mace and Yoda are equals.

Mace and Yoda being on the same tier doesn't make them equals. For example, Jinn and Kenobi circa TPM are stated to be on the same tier yet we can clearly see based on their performances against Maul that they aren't equals. The same holds true for Yoda and Sidious.

Gillard ultimately decided that Mace is a 9:

Gillard said this in 2008 yet clarified in 2017 that Mace was an 8 bordering on a 9. If you treat the statements as contradictory then the later one takes precedence which would be my quote. So no Mace isn't on Yoda's tier.

And show me where "Yoda legitimately disarmed Sidious in under a minute."

It's referenced in both the ROTS Script and Junior Novelization.

Mace overpowered Sidious in a blade lock - successfully re-directed his Lightning and had him beaten - while Yoda got sent flying like a ragdoll.

1. Mace didn't overpower Sidious in a bladelock. He pushed Sidious's blade downwards while the latter was in a poor position. Sidious recovered and actually matched Mace's augmentative strength.

2. Mace's attempt to re-direct Sidious's Lightning wasn't a smashing success. He strained massively to do and was on the verge of getting overpowered per the novelization and comic.

3. Yoda got sent flying because their power overloaded. Before this however, Yoda was clearly beginning to get the better of Sidious.

That makes them equals - duh.

Entirely unsubstantiated. The fact that they can both keep up with Sidious does not make them equals given that we can clearly see one of them (Windu) is Sidious's combative inferior and that the other (Yoda) is Sidious's combative superior.

We already know Mace is relative to Yoda, since Mace beats Sidious - whereas Yoda can't.

Utter nonsense as I previously explained.

Dooku says that Mace is equal to him, and Dooku was already shown to be equal to Yoda as a swordsman in AotC.

The quote is from Yoda's POV for starters not, Dooku's. Secondly, Dooku isn't equal to Yoda in AOTC. Dooku gets stonewalled by Yoda, pushed back and then retreats. Not to mention the quote in question suggests Dooku is potentially better than Windu by noting that Windu is "perhaps" equal to Dooku. The "perhaps" in the sentence indicates uncertainty of Windu is equal to Dooku implying Dooku's superiority.

If it's in Canon, it has George Lucas's blessing.

Lucas doesn't even know like anything about the EU or Fact Files lmao. It being canon doesn't mean it has Lucas's blessing. Regardless it's still an IU quote and subject to scrutiny as I previously stated.

Mace Windu overpowers Darth Sidious in a blade lock.

Addressed previously in my post.

Nah - your assertion is that Sidious threw the whole fight.

When did I ever say this? My original quote was this:

"Yeah sure he disarmed Sidious (whether or not Sidious let him is up for debate but I won't get too much into that now) however it's clear Sidious was still holding him off with Lightning and was on the verge of overpowering him before he pretended to be weak and powerless."

I said whether or not he legitimately disarmed Sidious is up for debate and there isn't conclusive evidence either way. My claim with concrete proof is that Sidious feigned weakness in the Lightning clash which is corroborated by Lucas himself as you've so kindly quoted. Not to use your own words: "go clean your glasses".

- Now you're trying to say that Sidious was deliberately having lethal-amounts of Lightning bounced back into his face. Vapaad already exists for that technique to occur - Sidious getting hit with lethal amounts of Lightning that could kill him wasn't part of the plan - unless you can prove Sidious knew about Vapaad. Sidious was dying (lethal Lightning) - he just wanted Anakin to intervene.

I never said that Sidious getting hit by lethal Lightning was part of the plan. I said that Sidious was on the verge of overpowering Mace (corroborated by two sources) and feigned weakness to the Lightning to get Anakin to join the Dark Side.

Yoda tried to overpower Sidious with the Force and got ragdolled. Mace successfully overpowered Sidious with the Force and was killing him.

Addressed and debunked.