World forger vs Franklin

Started by Diesldude9 pages

Originally posted by carver9
EXACTLY. Take the anvil AND his hammer out of the picture and just place WF in a room by his lonesome WITH NOTHING... he can not do anything multiversal/Universal. Nothing shows he can. It's like calling Reed universal because he have items that is non a universal scale.
it doesn't change anything because
1)what's to stop him from creating another set?

2)The hammer and anvil are tools he created and powered. that shows that he can grant multiversal power to inanimate objects so he should be multiversal himself.

3) the hammer and anvil was going to be used to replace the current multiverse with the one He created. A being that can create a multiverse should be multiversal himself no?

If you keep going with the hammer and anvil being multiversal, you inadvertently tripled superman's feat.

Think about it. With one punch,
Superman destroyed a multiversal object.
Superman destroyed a multiverse.
Superman knocked out a being that can create and destroy multiverses.

Are you sure you want to debate this angle? It just makes superman's feat even more formidable.

Originally posted by carver9
EXACTLY. Take the anvil AND his hammer out of the picture and just place WF in a room by his lonesome WITH NOTHING... he can not do anything multiversal/Universal.
g007-psyduck

i mean i get the confusion. i think when people say casual multiversal power they mean some that can at any moment no matter display that power. i think it get weird when the tools get involved because when he has them he can casually display the power if they are not interfered with.

but yeah from what ive seen in scans wf has multiversal feats but it seems without tools he just uber blah blah. like take away cable's time traveling whatevers he still has time traveling feats but he can no longer time travel so the power isn't his.

the power comes from the combination of wf and the stuff he uses like iron man and green lantern so Carver and DS agree?

Call it standard equipment if you wish. Either way, the Hammer and Anvil are literally PART of World Forger's powerset. PART of his conceptual purpose/role, as defined when Perpetua originally created him 20 billion years ago.

Like DS said: if Hal Jordan is in a thread, it is assumed he has his ring. Same thing here... The Hammer and Anvil are an extension of World Forger's power. Of course they should play a factor in how he is quantified.

i agree i think that just squashes the confusion a little maybe

I'm not even sure why the confusion arose in the first place lmao

Neither do I. Kind of blown away by the recent comments

Poor WF is literally defined by his job. To forge worlds. And what do we do? Take whatever he uses to accomplish his one role away.

Considering the fact that WF created new multiverse from idea, WF is easily multiversal.
So,WF stomps.

Originally posted by Galan007
You don't think it requires fully multiversal power to instantaneously replace one multiverse with another(which is precisely what WF himself said would happen when his Hammer struck the Anvil)..? Yes, he needed the Hammer to be lit and the Crisis Anvil to be formed, but that is all still just an extension of HIS power.

i don't see him as multiversal for the sole reason that he can't just replace a multiverse whenever he wants, something a true multiversal power might be able to do. there needs to be a very explicit set of circumstances to enable him to achieve the feat. almost like the multiverse needs to be prepped for him to do it. and, minus being a universe-builder, that is his sole feat of any note (besides...stopping superman's punch and....slamming him to the ground....?) in this case--maybe all cases--he didn't supplant a multiverse at all, he was simply prepared to fill a void left behind by another one. he didn't even destroy the prime universe/multiverse or anything--mxy was responsible for that. since he was incapable of even existing in the prime, i see no reason to suppose he could even destroy the prime UNIVERSE at will. not sure how he can be truly multiversal if he doesn't even have dominion the prime UNIVERSE. i can hear the calls of pis already--i say it's a reflection of his station in the same way dealing with a crisis is a reflection.

As explained in Metal and JL: WF's primary function was indeed to populate the multiverse with an infinite amount of physical universes, which he did... Twice(once with the mainstream 3D multiverse, and again with his new and more evolved multiverse.) But that doesn't preclude the notion that he can act in a fully multiversal capacity when need be, which is something Franklin cannot do under any circumstances that I am aware of.

yep, agreed. he populates the multiverse with UNIVERSES. it is crystal clear that perpetua is the multiversal creator, not wf. he just creates universes within her design. create enough universes and what do you get? a multiverse. he does have the ability to anchor universes in a way current franklin couldn't--though kid frank had no problem doing so.... wf does create failed universes though, obviously, just that his failures sink into the dark for barbatos--who eventually defeated wf. (i recall all the cries of how disappointing barbatos's power was, but he still beat wf somehow.) all the failed UNIVERSES together populated the dark multiverse.

anyway, degree of control i'll grant you, but in terms of overall scope? both can create, shape and will into being universes. if certain conditions arise, wf can apparently replace a multiverse, but (slightly off-topic) i do wonder at the scope of what he was trying to do. was he going to replace the entire orrery of worlds? hypertime? he used both universe and multiverse in describing what he was going to do, so, i'm not sure. i find it hard to believe he would replace the entire orrery. what about the monitor? was he replacing the monitor sphere too? the 5th dimension? where do we stop and, given his inconsistent use of terminology, how do we make the decision?

Also, Franklin can only conceive of full-scale universes. He cannot bind/solidify them or anchor them to reality... Owen had to do that for him. WF obviously does not have the same limitation where universal creation is concerned, so either way he should be considerably above Franklin, imo. [/B]

he created the heroes reborn universe without trouble. considerably above frank? not imo. wf does have greater control of his power but i think if they met this would be a lot closer than most think. guess we just agree to disagree on this issue. 👆

i do wonder how people would have reacted to this thread if it were the monitor vs franklin...?

Originally posted by CatL18
Considering the fact that WF created new multiverse from idea, WF is easily multiversal.
So,WF stomps.

no, he didn't. he created a collection of UNIVERSES that together form a multiverse, precisely the way frank and owen were doing things in the recent FF--creating a multiverse one universe at a time.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
EXACTLY.

In the next thread from Carver:. Green Lantern vs Gladiator, but we must take Hal's ring away.

Then Iron Man vs Magneto, but Tony is not allowed his suit.

Is his durability = to that of his weapons? All I'm saying is, just because a being have TOOLS that can achieve outrageous results "in time", this does not translate to his overall physical performance. Example, give Reed the Ultimate Nullifier which could handle Galactus level beings and if he stood in one spot, Superman and Hulk would still crush his face open with a single punch.

Originally posted by CatL18
Considering the fact that WF created new multiverse from idea, WF is easily multiversal.
So,WF stomps.

How did he create it? Let's say if Franklin decides to turn him into quicksand, does he have a counter for that?

Originally posted by carver9
How did he create it? Let's say if Franklin decides to turn him into quicksand, does he have a counter for that?

He can rewrite DNA without the anvil so entirely possible he can.

But the problem with him is we have not seen him fight much to grasp his true capabilities. Now he also rewrote his own DNA so who knows what that will entail moving forward

Originally posted by carver9
Is his durability = to that of his weapons? All I'm saying is, just because a being have TOOLS that can achieve outrageous results "in time", this does not translate to his overall physical performance. Example, give Reed the Ultimate Nullifier which could handle Galactus level beings and if he stood in one spot, Superman and Hulk would still crush his face open with a single punch.

What does it matter?

Iron Man is a low herald. Is Tony Stark as durable as his armour?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What does it matter?

Iron Man is a low herald. Is Tony Stark as durable as his armour?

That is different because Ironman was judged "inside of a suit of armor". I dont think WF is covered in multiverse level armor, is he?

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't see him as multiversal for the sole reason that he can't just replace a multiverse whenever he wants, something a true multiversal power might be able to do. there needs to be a very explicit set of circumstances to enable him to achieve the feat. almost like the multiverse needs to be prepped for him to do it. and, minus being a universe-builder, that is his sole feat of any note (besides...stopping superman's punch and....slamming him to the ground....?) in this case--maybe all cases--he didn't supplant a multiverse at all, he was simply prepared to fill a void left behind by another one. he didn't even destroy the prime universe/multiverse or anything--mxy was responsible for that. since he was incapable of even existing in the prime, i see no reason to suppose he could even destroy the prime UNIVERSE at will. not sure how he can be truly multiversal if he doesn't even have dominion the prime UNIVERSE. i can hear the calls of pis already--i say it's a reflection of his station in the same way dealing with a crisis is a reflection.

yep, agreed. he populates the multiverse with UNIVERSES. it is crystal clear that perpetua is the multiversal creator, not wf. he just creates universes within her design. create enough universes and what do you get? a multiverse. he does have the ability to anchor universes in a way current franklin couldn't--though kid frank had no problem doing so.... wf does create failed universes though, obviously, just that his failures sink into the dark for barbatos--who eventually defeated wf. (i recall all the cries of how disappointing barbatos's power was, but he still beat wf somehow.) all the failed UNIVERSES together populated the dark multiverse.

anyway, degree of control i'll grant you, but in terms of overall scope? both can create, shape and will into being universes. if certain conditions arise, wf can apparently replace a multiverse, but (slightly off-topic) i do wonder at the scope of what he was trying to do. was he going to replace the entire orrery of worlds? hypertime? he used both universe and multiverse in describing what he was going to do, so, i'm not sure. i find it hard to believe he would replace the entire orrery. what about the monitor? was he replacing the monitor sphere too? the 5th dimension? where do we stop and, given his inconsistent use of terminology, how do we make the decision?

he created the heroes reborn universe without trouble. considerably above frank? not imo. wf does have greater control of his power but i think if they met this would be a lot closer than most think. guess we just agree to disagree on this issue. 👆

i do wonder how people would have reacted to this thread if it were the monitor vs franklin...?


Seriously? Superman just flying was affecting entire structure of cosmos (every dimension. sixth dimension is infinitely bigger than fifth dimension which is infinitely bigger than fourth dimension which is infinitely bigger than 3D multiverse) and his punch destroyed an exact replica of 3D multiverse, yet Forger took it and got up. That's not a feat?

How many of these kinds of punches Franklin has taken?

Is it argued that World Forger, explicitly one of the 4 most powerful beings in existence, creator of Multiverses with total control over his form, is as durable as Tony Stark?

It's hard to keep track.

Originally posted by carver9
That is different because Ironman was judged "inside of a suit of armor". I dont think WF is covered in multiverse level armor, is he?

Oh

Emm

Gee.

Lol.

Are you seriously doubling down on this?

So Green Lantern? He is only judged based on his ring finger.
Nico Minoru, with the Staff of One? She only carries it around.
Baron Zemo with Moonstones? He only carries it around.

Are you literally ignoring standard equipment??

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh

Emm

Gee.

Lol.

Are you seriously doubling down on this?

So Green Lantern? He is only judged based on his ring finger.
Nico Minoru, with the Staff of One? She only carries it around.
Baron Zemo with Moonstones? He only carries it around.

Are you literally ignoring standard equipment??

He had to put things together to possibly destroy a multiverse. He created an Anvil and specialized his hammer to achieve a certain result. He doesnt just go into battle at multiversal level. Let's use Chaos King or Mxy as an example. These are 2 beings that could destroy universes on a whim. They dont have to build or put anything together to make these results happen. It's just part of them. WF, we cant say the same thing because going by what we saw, he need things in play to achieve said results.