Originally posted by leonidasThat's why I put the words omniversal in "" - because hypertime includes EVERYTHING [pre crisis, post crisis, elseworlds, etc.] - but only as far as this creation is concerned, as far as we've seen, since we have zero knowledge of other creations by characters other than Perpetua. And it is - most assuredly - part of this Multiverse, too. I even posted the scan.
you mentioned omniverse--if hypertime is indeed an omniversal thing, then at best, wf could have been responsible for only parts of it since his power is manifestly relegated to this multiverse. i always considered hypertime an omniversal feature of the dcu.
Hypertime being present in World Forger's future Multiverse exp:
https://imgur.com/a/gC7mtKt
Which is only natural - since the Multiverse World Forger built is a carbon copy of the main one, as to not make the Cosmic Judges see the difference.
As is the Fourth World.
As we can clearly see -- Lois resides there, and it's where the prisoners are kept:
https://i.imgur.com/uK4Ar8T.jpg
Darkseid is there, too:
https://imgur.com/a/dwmqTJj
And we have World Forger having created multiple multiverseS until he created the proper one to replace the broken current:
https://i.imgur.com/5VyeZyW.jpg
And we even have some of the remanants of the previous ones, like Lois:
https://i.imgur.com/pcBqpdX.jpg
Just in case you're still in doubt that he built the entire configuration of the main Multiverse, too:
https://imgur.com/a/MHUL6hM
i mean literally EVERYTHING wf has done can be explained away as him doing things one universe at a time. i TRULY don't understand why that is such an...apocalyptic take. well, except for those who want to use it to scale superman.
etc.
In a way, you're right about him - but not the way you'd like to. He is far above what you'd consider a '3d multiverse' being - he created multiple Multiverses AND the upper dimensions of creation like the 4th World and such. AND he is a 6th Dimensional being. Ironically enough, the more you bring this to my/Galan's attention to actually look into it, the more powerful the character actually is.
It's a weird hill to die on - and I know it revolves around not being to accept Superman as that powerful. Hell, two weeks ago, we had another 20 page or such where people were desperate to bring the other one down.
We weren't even talking about Superman, but about World Forger alone -- so it's that obvious what this really is about.
It's a cycle. We're into "Match the feat" part 2 type of threads.
Originally posted by leonidas
you call the leaguers 'fake'. do you mean that literally, or just to mark a difference? because i don't think they were 'fake'. i think they WERE the league, as they would have turned out, in THAT universe. iow--they were very real. wf is not evil, and i think he legit showed them what might happen if they took out all opposition and could focus on 'justice'.
I think they were real and just used the term "fake" to distinguish them from their prime multiverse selves then use the long "World Forger created possible justice league incarnations white lantern john stewart and etc..."
Originally posted by leonidas
and you're pretty much getting what i'm saying though you disagree. but let me ask you--doesn't that mean that ANY UNIVERSAL builder is by extension multiversal? i mean anyone who can build universes can build more of them and once you've built even a couple of them, you have a multiverse, by definition. to me, that doesn't imply multiversal power, it just means you can build multiple universes. in wf's case, he doesn't seem capable of controlling his creations, he doesn't seem capable of having any real authority over them, or even whether they succeed or fail as seen with the dark multiverse. he couldn't even enter the prime reality. that's...a lot of limits for a multiversal character. /shrug
Yeah, I would classify anyone that can make multiple universes to fill a Multiverse as a multiversal character imo. Because some characters energy or power is spent just creating a single universe and if a character can create a single universe, again, and again, and again, without pause until they create a Multiverse that is said to be larger than the prime multiverse then I would classify that character as multiversal even if they did it one universe at a time because the depth of their power created a multiverse in scope even if it was one universe at a time. They didn't run out of power nor were there limits tested.
I think it would be much clearer and your point would be stronger if it was stated that World Forger's limit was only universal and he needed a massive cool down time between the creation of a single universe and the next but he seems to be rapidly creating universes (possibilities) with no pause unless he is destroyed and reforms in the higher dimension.
Him having certain restrictions on entering 3D universe and when his cosmic anvil had to be lit and other things doesn't take away from his power imo its more like rules of creation that he can't violate and its not his purpose or designation to. That's what I got out of it...
Originally posted by leonidas
the things you said all give an indication of his overall level of power, but like i said, multiverses can be made (apparently) in more than one way--brought into existence ex nihilo as perpetua did, or, as wf seems to do, one universe at a time. if he's capable of only creating one universe at a time (and there is LITERALLY no evidence to suggest he can create more than one world at a time) then isn't he by definition UNIVERSAL?
The way I see it (and this is just to put this on a lower scale) is the same kind of debate if a character blows up a planet, then several more, then dozens more, and keeps going until he or she destroys every planet in the universe.
Would you say that character is only planetary? Personally I would say the character is capable of multi-planetary at least. I wouldn't restrict them to just be planetary when they accomplished much more than that. Now would I classify them as some universe destroyer? No I would not because they didn't affect the entire universe at once, not to mention things like space, time, stars, etc...
In the World Forger's case he can literally swap out one multiverse with another (that mxy was in the process of destroying) with his cosmic anvil apparatus which makes him multiversal imo and not just a universal being.
Originally posted by leonidas
no it doesn't. they didn't preside over multiverses (if the anti-matter universe can be seen as a multiverse as opposed to one massive universe) until AFTER wf started populating things. both monitor and anti-monitor, at the time they were formed, watched over empty shells that would BECOME multiverses because of wf. i think they are all (or were at the time they were made) nearly identical in power--that's the implication imo.
Which would still mean that his brothers have become Infinitely more powerful than him since they, at least during the crisis of infinite earths, grew both to be multiversal powers representing anti and positive matter universes. It doesn't add up to me that World Forger wouldn't become multiversal himself, just like his brothers, with the creation of the Dark Multiverse and this new now defunct future best multiverse he tried to superimpose of the current multiverse.
Originally posted by leonidas
if he were truly multiversal, why does he need help? why couldn't he do it at any time? why did he need a very special set of circumstances to arise before he could perform the action?
Again rules and restriction of his position as one of the beings in charge of Perpetua creation. I don't see this as weakening him like you do. I think of it as more of a cosmic rule that ensures he doesn't cross into other domains that aren't his stated purpose as forger of worlds. Which means that destruction of worlds may not be his function which is why I think he created Barbatos to be the dragon that consumes those discarded worlds.
Originally posted by leonidas
to me it's simple--that is part of his function. when a crisi arises he can, as the forger, deal with it. a scientist who detonates a nuke with a button doesn't have atomic power. wf was prepared to drop the multiverse into an EMPTY VOID because of a crisis he had to arrange for someone ELSE to bring to fruition. a universal power given the task to replace a multiverse when a crisis comes up. not sure why his personal power needs to be so great if all he is doing is performing a function that he prepared for and that he was made to perform. (unless of course you have some sort of...super agenda. lol)
I think for you and your classification a multiversal being must be....how should I put this, able to do everything to a multiverse, instantly with no limits in their function of creation, control, destruction, etc...
And I find that view far too narrow and too limiting. To take things down to a planetary level, if a character has the power to say create life on a planet and that is their purpose but they can't necessarily control all the life they create nor can they destroy a world would you then classify that character as not being planetary?
I would not, they would still be a planetary being with rules in place that govern their abilities to perform a certain function or task and that's it. I wouldn't take away the scope of their abilities because of the rules that constrain the character to only being a creator and not a destroyer.
Cause I think that's really the thing that I'm fundamentally disagreeing with you about. World Forger purpose is not to destroy but to create and him needing Mxy is the same reason he made Barbatos, to consume/destroy universes. That's not in his function to be able to do but imo it doesn't take away from his ability to create (over time) a multiverse.
Originally posted by leonidas
as for franklin--in heroes reborn he created a universe. it was represented by a little blue ball:now, if he had gone on to make several of those little balls, would he be a multiversal power? not imo. (and on a slightly different topic, was that gator now a universal threat?? lol) he'd just be a universal power who made a bunch of universes.
cool discussion though. 👆
I think if a universal power can make multiple universes then their multiversal. Of course their are levels to it and a major difference between several and infinite but I wouldn't restrict a character to a lower level. And thanks for the discussion 😎
Originally posted by Phil👆
That's why I put the words omniversal in "" - because hypertime includes EVERYTHING [pre crisis, post crisis, elseworlds, etc.] - but only as far as this creation is concerned, as far as we've seen, since we have zero knowledge of other creations by characters other than Perpetua. And it is - most assuredly - part of this Multiverse, too. I even posted the scan.Hypertime being present in World Forger's future Multiverse exp:
https://imgur.com/a/gC7mtKtWhich is only natural - since the Multiverse World Forger built is a carbon copy of the main one, as to not make the Cosmic Judges see the difference.
As is the Fourth World.
As we can clearly see -- Lois resides there, and it's where the prisoners are kept:
https://i.imgur.com/uK4Ar8T.jpgDarkseid is there, too:
https://imgur.com/a/dwmqTJjAnd we have World Forger having created multiple multiverseS until he created the proper one to replace the broken current:
https://i.imgur.com/5VyeZyW.jpgAnd we even have some of the remanants of the previous ones, like Lois:
https://i.imgur.com/pcBqpdX.jpgJust in case you're still in doubt that he built the entire configuration of the main Multiverse, too:
https://imgur.com/a/MHUL6hMHow could anything World Forger has ever done be explained as 'one' Universe at a time, when:
- in this story arc he is explicitly showing the scope as he's about to move an entire Multiverse [3D, 4D etc.] in one go
- he has created multiple MultiverseS, then left the last one that was fitting to replace the current one
- before that he has created the pre-Crisis [infinite] Multiverse, then the next etc. he has created infinite Universes and every possibility several times
- he has created more than the 3D Universes - EVERYTHING in the cosmologyetc.
In a way, you're right about him - but not the way you'd like to. He is far above what you'd consider a '3d multiverse' being - he created multiple Multiverses AND the upper dimensions of creation like the 4th World and such. AND he is a 6th Dimensional being. Ironically enough, the more you bring this to my/Galan's attention to actually look into it, the more powerful the character actually is.
It's a weird hill to die on - and I know it revolves around not being to accept Superman as that powerful. Hell, two weeks ago, we had another 20 page or such where people were desperate to bring the other one down.
We weren't even talking about Superman, but about World Forger alone -- so it's that obvious what this really is about.
It's a cycle. We're into "Match the feat" part 2 type of threads.
This thread has been good, because I actually view WF as more powerful now than I did at the start. It's helped me connect a lot of dots, tbh.
-----
On top of everything you mentioned about the infinitudeS that WF fully created/realized, you also have to consider all of the universes that he discarded into the Dark Multiverse... And then consider how immensely vast the Dark Multiverse itself is:
https://i.imgur.com/5mnaa7Y.jpg
"...A realm much older and vaster than ours. An oceanic, subconscious realm our tiny multiverse floats on."
IOW, the sum total of what WF actually created(ie. both the universes he kept AND those the threw away) is unfathomably gargantuan -- we're talking several 'levels' of infinity here, in terms of scope/scale. Crazy.
Moreover, Monitor also confirmed that WF's energies exist in every bit of matter in existence:
https://i.imgur.com/FudD109.jpg
*When Monitor says "EVERY bit of matter", you know he means it in a fully multiversal sense. So like you said: WF very much plays the same part that Michael Demiurgos did.
We also know that WF had personally examined/explored "EVERY possible future":
https://i.imgur.com/MNB1D7K.jpg
And when aligned with this scan(which you already posted), we know that "every possible future" likely translates to "every possible multiverse":
https://i.imgur.com/yUCoxvf.jpg
The way I see it, WF can definitely operate in a fully multiversal capacity when he wants/needs to. But either way, the sheer scope/scale of what he has created FAR exceeds Franklin's [sub]universal power(as mentioned, he can only conceive of full-scale universes -- he cannot anchor or bind them to reality. IOW, he cannot fully manifest his universes without outside assistance.)
Originally posted by Galan007👆
👆This thread has been good, because I actually view WF as more powerful now than I did at the start. It's helped me connect a lot of dots, tbh.
-----
On top of everything you mentioned about the infinitudeS that WF fully created/realized, you also have to consider all of the universes that he discarded into the Dark Multiverse... And then consider how immensely vast the Dark Multiverse itself is:
https://i.imgur.com/5mnaa7Y.jpg
"...A realm much older and vaster than ours. An oceanic, subconscious realm our tiny multiverse floats on."IOW, the sum total of what WF actually created(ie. both the universes he kept AND those the threw away) is unfathomably gargantuan -- we're talking several 'levels' of infinity here, in terms of scope/scale. Crazy.
Moreover, Monitor also confirmed that WF's energies exist in every bit of matter in existence:
https://i.imgur.com/FudD109.jpg
*When Monitor says "EVERY bit of matter", you know he means it in a fully multiversal sense. So like you said: WF very much plays the same part that Michael Demiurgos did.We also know that WF had personally examined/explored "EVERY possible future":
https://i.imgur.com/MNB1D7K.jpgAnd when aligned with this scan(which you already posted), we know that "every possible future" likely translates to "every possible multiverse":
https://i.imgur.com/yUCoxvf.jpgThe way I see it, WF can definitely operate in a fully multiversal capacity when he wants/needs to. But either way, the sheer scope/scale of what he has created FAR exceeds Franklin's [sub]universal power(as mentioned, he can only conceive of full-scale universes -- he cannot anchor or bind them to reality. IOW, he cannot fully manifest his universes without outside assistance.)
We haven't even gotten into the 10th element...and what even traces of it can do.
https://imgur.com/a/IQakJsB
https://imgur.com/a/DdNm3sp
...and what traces of it power in the 4th World, Miracle Machines...etc.
I legitimately didn't even think to analyze this into this much detail, so this thread certainly helped put it all into perspective 👆
Lol, Phil is my sock account. 👆
But seriously, how is it a no-limits fallacy? We know for a fact what WF created(it is honestly pretty well-defined on panel), and I thought that's what is being discussed.
Are you of the opinion that he didn't create the infinitudes that have been mentioned? Do you think he wasn't capable of switching one multiverse with another during the Crisis event Mxy generated? Do you think the ease in which he can fully manifest universes isn't superior to Franklin's?
I’ll try and clarify a little of what I mean later or tomorrow. The short answer? I think wf is more powerful than frank. 👆 I don’t think he’s more powerful by as much as you do though and I think there are....problems taking this in the direction you both have. I’ll try and clarify tomorrow. And one of the scans Phil showed doesn’t work quite as well as I think he thinks it does in support of your position. This is fun! 😂
And people thought you can’t have a civil, reasoned discussion on the forum. I will promise you though—for me this has nothing to do with superman who can do....pretty well anything anymore as far as dc goes. That’s why beating ds with the lowly surfer will be so awesome. Heh. 👆
The implication Galan.
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, Phil is my sock account. 👆But seriously, how is it a no-limits fallacy? We know for a fact what WF created(it is honestly pretty well-defined on panel), and I thought that's what is being discussed.
Are you of the opinion that he didn't create the infinitudes that have been mentioned? Do you think he wasn't capable of switching one multiverse with another during the Crisis event Mxy generated? Do you think the ease in which he can fully manifest universes isn't superior to Franklin's?
this seems like the best place to start. this will be long, i'm sure. lol
let me first clear up something that i think is causing a lot of folk some consternation.
the obsession with labeling characters is really getting...out of hand, maybe. people seem to object to my definition of a multiversal or universal level character. to me, it's simple--if you are truly a universal level character (sounds ridiculous even saying it...) you are someone who has control/power/authority OVER a universe. if you're 'multiversal' in scale--you have control/power/authority over....the multiverse. to me, that makes the multiversal tier REALLY small. we can argue endlessly regarding the varying degrees of 'multiversality' of characters, but that is generally the way i see it.
and wf? he hasn't demonstrated ANY authority over anything he's created. he couldn't even command batman.... could he have forced the league? changed their minds like he wanted batman too? maybe. he said he could. but that leads to another problem--he tried to create an idealized world to fool the judges--and failed. miserably. shayne evolved in that future, unaccounted for, clearly. the entire result of his future? failure. again, clear evidence he has no real control over anything he brings into being. he said he looked at every possibility (incidentally, i don't think he 'created' every possibility, like, AT ALL--i think he just foresaw them since he can clearly see SOME of the future) and it was the only one that worked. but he was manifestly wrong.
what does that allow? it allows for the idea that there were MANY possibilities he didn't foresee during the course of the multiverse's evolution, or bring into being, but that exist. i mean, i think that is huge part of snyder's overall theme--the power of imagination, of being able to do and go beyond what can be imagined.
if we ascribe to him the creation of EVERY POSSIBLE UNIVERSE IN THE MULTIVERSE we have to discount other created universes like all the realms of dream, for example. and i'm sure you and phil can name others in dc who have built universes or dimensions. i can already think of others.
beyond that, your line of thinking leads to, well, a lot. that's why i said no limits.
did he create a universe where clark kent wore a blue tie to work instead of a red one? where jimmy olson had fish for dinner instead of the pasta he was thinking about? i mean, the red tie and the fish are possibilities, right? and if he didn't even know earth EXISTED, (still not sure if he meant the literal planet or the prime universe) how was he building all the possibilities/futures/alternates that were and WOULD come from it? there was a possibility one day it would be populated with heroes. but he couldn't have created that possibility because he didn't know about earth.... your line of thinking just seems to lead to a lot of problems if followed to its ultimate conclusion. /shrug
my thought--he creates universes and if he thinks they have possibilities for being good, or 'just' he lets them loose to evolve as they will. if he deems them dangerous or dark or failed, they fall back to the dark. i mean THAT is the literal definition of his job, as stated multiple times. if he creates a universe, that universe then expands into a multiverse almost immediately. does life grow on one planet, or another? possibility. so the universe HE created, evolves in BOTH ways and in a very real sense, HE was responsible for THAT multiverse. it doesn't mean he is the literal creator of EVERY CONCEIVABLE POSSIBLE universe though. it doesn't even make sense.
if what you said was true, it would also mean that while he was manifest in his future universe, in the league's prime universe now, THERE WAS NO POSSIBILITY LEFT OF ANYTHING IN THE WHOLE MULTIVERSE? no hopes, no dreams, no possibilities brought into being since he makes them manifest. that doesn't sound like a reasonable line of thinking to me.
possibility must end when he's dead (as he has been) or while he's busy getting ko'd by superman.
makes no sense to me. i think he is responsible for bringing universes into being, 100%, but i think those universes evolve in different ways after that, on their own, monitored by his brothers.
do you think he created the universe where it was possible he would be a leaguer? no, clearly, since it was something he never foresaw as a possibility. that's another entire MULTIVERSE he didn't create. his own TAILOR-MADE universe failed because of possibilities he didn't foresee or bring into being. again, evidence that once his universes have been released into the multiverse, they are on their own to evolve randomly, and out of his control, and possibilities can exist without his creating them. shayne? lois not shooting supes? possibilities that happened that he didn't create. an entire multiverse changed because of those decisions.
so how did he create his 'future' multiverse? lol i don't know, or really care. you want to say he blinked it into existence? no problem. i disagree, but don't have any problem because we didn't see it happen. maybe he looked at the future of a single universe and how it might evolve and created that universe and evolved it. i don't know and don't claim to.
if we continue to follow your line of thought, it seems like it necessitates a retcon, too. phil mentioned crediting him with all the infinite universes. but that initial universe was broken by krona. that origin still exists in hypertime. do we....throw that out? i'd wager that's not what snyder was intending.... or maybe you think AFTER krona broke it, wf THEN created infinite worlds, instantaneously? to each their own. easier for me to think wf brought that initial universe into being and it did what it did. that doesn't mean he didn't create other worlds/universes based on dreams and hopes and possibilities of beings living in those universes. it just means i don't think he was responsible for ALL of them. where do i draw a line? i don't. i don't think we're meant to look that closely. when we do, things like this happen.
phil also showed a scan where the league used element x to beat barbatos. element x is what the forge is made of--the metal of possibilities. this seems to imply the METAL of the forge is the true source of wf's power. just an interesting aside. /shrug
not claiming my view is perfect, or even right, but those are my thoughts.
tl;dr 😛
ps--yes, he could have replaced the multiverse, clearly, but like i said, that is a very specific feat he can't do at will. and he can likely bring universes into being faster than frank. but in all this, we never really see what he can do in combat with his powers. at least we've seen frank in action. we'll know more as we go along.
