Originally posted by leonidas
i don't see him as multiversal for the sole reason that he can't just replace a multiverse whenever he wants, something a true multiversal power might be able to do. there needs to be a very explicit set of circumstances to enable him to achieve the feat. almost like the multiverse needs to be prepped for him to do it. and, minus being a universe-builder, that is his sole feat of any note (besides...stopping superman's punch and....slamming him to the ground....?) in this case--maybe all cases--he didn't supplant a multiverse at all, he was simply prepared to fill a void left behind by another one. he didn't even destroy the prime universe/multiverse or anything--mxy was responsible for that. since he was incapable of even existing in the prime, i see no reason to suppose he could even destroy the prime UNIVERSE at will. not sure how he can be truly multiversal if he doesn't even have dominion the prime UNIVERSE. i can hear the calls of pis already--i say it's a reflection of his station in the same way dealing with a crisis is a reflection.yep, agreed. he populates the multiverse with UNIVERSES. it is crystal clear that perpetua is the multiversal creator, not wf. he just creates universes within her design. create enough universes and what do you get? a multiverse. he does have the ability to anchor universes in a way current franklin couldn't--though kid frank had no problem doing so.... wf does create failed universes though, obviously, just that his failures sink into the dark for barbatos--who eventually defeated wf. (i recall all the cries of how disappointing barbatos's power was, but he still beat wf somehow.) all the failed UNIVERSES together populated the dark multiverse.
anyway, degree of control i'll grant you, but in terms of overall scope? both can create, shape and will into being universes. if certain conditions arise, wf can apparently replace a multiverse, but (slightly off-topic) i do wonder at the scope of what he was trying to do. was he going to replace the entire orrery of worlds? hypertime? he used both universe and multiverse in describing what he was going to do, so, i'm not sure. i find it hard to believe he would replace the entire orrery. what about the monitor? was he replacing the monitor sphere too? the 5th dimension? where do we stop and, given his inconsistent use of terminology, how do we make the decision?
he created the heroes reborn universe without trouble. considerably above frank? not imo. wf does have greater control of his power but i think if they met this would be a lot closer than most think. guess we just agree to disagree on this issue. 👆
i do wonder how people would have reacted to this thread if it were the monitor vs franklin...?
This is pertty much right on the money
Originally posted by abhilegend
😂
Love it when people need to prove there point with writer blogs or bios. Lol
Didn't the replica earth or whatever planet on not even get destroyed from this hit? Hmmmm
Also the cosmic anvil which was already preped and activated had nothing to do this when.destroyed? Hmmmm
Also why don't we see this in comic itself when it happened? Hmmmmm
Where.does it say in comic it.happened.like you said? Hmmmm
Originally posted by Demon of HeavenBecause we already saw it in comics and just clarified by writers/bios
Love it when people need to prove there point with writer blogs or bios. LolDidn't the replica earth or whatever planet on not even get destroyed from this hit? Hmmmm
Also the cosmic anvil which was already preped and activated had nothing to do this when.destroyed? Hmmmm
Also why don't we see this in comic itself when it happened? Hmmmmm
Where.does it say in comic it.happened.like you said? Hmmmm
Originally posted by Galan007 It really is cut and dry.Earlier in the arc World Forger stated that once his Hammer was lit, all he had to do was strike the Crisis Anvil, and *poof*, his multiverse would instantly replace the existing one:https://i.imgur.com/jN0ET4j.jpgCut to this issue, and World Forger's Hammer is lit:https://i.imgur.com/lU3wRvS.jpgHis Crisis Anvil is fully formed:https://i.imgur.com/N7Lg0Jr.jpgHe was literally in the process of striking the Anvil and replacing multiverses:https://i.imgur.com/i3XUGbm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/uCKx4pJ.jpgBut before his swing connects, Superman punches him and destroys the Anvil: *In the last scan you can actually see reality being shattered.Cut to World Forger stating that his multiverse collapsed:https://i.imgur.com/wKyuQix.jpgSimple logic is simple.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998 Certainly not, Since the three brothers powerset all suggesting they are all multiversal beings cool Monitor powered by all positive universes/matters
https://i.imgur.com/RnFELcG.jpg
AM could stalemate to peak Monitor without absorbing any positive universes
https://i.imgur.com/Hf3Jh34.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PvmdqaP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RCZEhTg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9oeRLq8.jpg
BTW, Collateral damage means nothing which already been debated
Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
Love it when people need to prove there point with writer blogs or bios. LolDidn't the replica earth or whatever planet on not even get destroyed from this hit? Hmmmm
Also the cosmic anvil which was already preped and activated had nothing to do this when.destroyed? Hmmmm
Also why don't we see this in comic itself when it happened? Hmmmmm
Where.does it say in comic it.happened.like you said? Hmmmm
Well, it is confirmed in the comic as well, this just confirmed it.
"This multiverse is my masterpiece ".
"My masterpiece , you destroyed it".
Hmmm
Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
I agree. Esp with battles. But this is differentBut dude just said entire dark multiverse was destroyed yet planet they on within dark multiverse is just fine.
Mxy alone transcends 3D multiverse and he is merely 5th dimensional.
Sixth dimension transcends even fifth dimension. Now are you able to understand the dimension hierarchy?
Originally posted by Sensui
I asked Galan because I know he knows far more than I do about DC Cosmology and if something like that would be possible for the Life Entity and Speed/Still Force to accomplish. I know he tempted batman with the Final Bat Suit but what Fake John and Fake Flash was accomplishing was Multiversal even if it was one universe at a time and I wanted to know if Galan thought it was something that could be viewed as an extension of World Forger's power or not.
you call the leaguers 'fake'. do you mean that literally, or just to mark a difference? because i don't think they were 'fake'. i think they WERE the league, as they would have turned out, in THAT universe. iow--they were very real. wf is not evil, and i think he legit showed them what might happen if they took out all opposition and could focus on 'justice'.
If you don't view it as an extension of World Forger's power then yes (for John and Flash) it should be imo.Also I've read through the thread and if I miss characterize your position then let me know but when you said...
👆
and you're pretty much getting what i'm saying though you disagree. but let me ask you--doesn't that mean that ANY UNIVERSAL builder is by extension multiversal? i mean anyone who can build universes can build more of them and once you've built even a couple of them, you have a multiverse, by definition. to me, that doesn't imply multiversal power, it just means you can build multiple universes. in wf's case, he doesn't seem capable of controlling his creations, he doesn't seem capable of having any real authority over them, or even whether they succeed or fail as seen with the dark multiverse. he couldn't even enter the prime reality. that's...a lot of limits for a multiversal character. /shrug
If he created the Dark Multiverse (regardless of how much control he has over it, or how long it took) then by default shouldn't he classify as a Multiversal Power? Unless your position is that because of the time it took (which we don't know) or his lack of control over Barbatos and the rest of the discarded concepts disqualifies from creating it in the first place?
imo the things you said all give an indication of his overall level of power, but like i said, multiverses can be made (apparently) in more than one way--brought into existence ex nihilo as perpetua did, or, as wf seems to do, one universe at a time. if he's capable of only creating one universe at a time (and there is LITERALLY no evidence to suggest he can create more than one world at a time) then isn't he by definition UNIVERSAL?
Also if your position is correct then it literally means that Perpetua, who created her three sons Anti-Monitor, Monitor, and World Forger to manage her creation, literally made her third son the World Forger INFINITELY weaker than Anti-Monitor powered by the anti-matter multiverse and Monitor powered by the positive multiverse.
no it doesn't. they didn't preside over multiverses (if the anti-matter universe can be seen as a multiverse as opposed to one massive universe) until AFTER wf started populating things. both monitor and anti-monitor, at the time they were formed, watched over empty shells that would BECOME multiverses because of wf. i think they are all (or were at the time they were made) nearly identical in power--that's the implication imo.
Multiverses with his cosmic hammer and anvil when a multiversal crisis appears.
i've said this before. he needed mxy to destroy the previous multiverse for him before he could drop in the new multiverse (and he also uses UNIVERSE to describe what he was doing). if he were truly multiversal, why does he need help? why couldn't he do it at any time? why did he need a very special set of circumstances to arise before he could perform the action?
to me it's simple--that is part of his function. when a crisi arises he can, as the forger, deal with it. a scientist who detonates a nuke with a button doesn't have atomic power. wf was prepared to drop the multiverse into an EMPTY VOID because of a crisis he had to arrange for someone ELSE to bring to fruition. a universal power given the task to replace a multiverse when a crisis comes up. not sure why his personal power needs to be so great if all he is doing is performing a function that he prepared for and that he was made to perform. (unless of course you have some sort of...super agenda. lol)
as for franklin--in heroes reborn he created a universe. it was represented by a little blue ball:
now, if he had gone on to make several of those little balls, would he be a multiversal power? not imo. (and on a slightly different topic, was that gator now a universal threat?? lol) he'd just be a universal power who made a bunch of universes.
cool discussion though. 👆
Originally posted by leonidas
ok, i disagree with your conclusion.firstly, wf was indeed going to replace the prime reality with the future "justice formation". but this isn't something he was able to casually do. he needed a crisis anvil to form and he needed his hammer to light. neither of those things appear to be things he can just will into being unless a TRUE crisis is imminent--in this case in the form of mxy. as for replacing the prime--as i said, true. but he wasn't going to do it until AFTER mxy wiped everything out:
the new (he uses the term...) universe, won't descend until AFTER the old prime was unwritten by mxy. then the new one descends in place of the vanished one. it's not like he can casually replace mutliverses whenever he feels like it. not imo. it seems he needed the old one to be destroyed first, so he could place the new one in the void it left. he DOES reference the mutliverse, but in that regard, i think he means that the prime universe will have lost a great deal of time--his new prime is a FUTURE prime. he hopes that when judged, they don't notice how much more time has past in the NEW prime, relative to the rest of the multiverse.... that's my take at least.
the fact that he's just replacing the prime UNIVERSE is supported here:
as for wf's function: we know he is to populate the multiverse. how does he do that? by creating "worlds". i take that to mean universes. which makes sense since once he's created.....LOTS of universes (some of which succeed, others that don't) he will have created a....MULTIVERSE. almost PRECISELY the way franklin did so. he created a multiverse one universe at a time.
soon each of the 3 realms would be populated with UNIVERSES. again, fitting wf's role as multiversal..."populat-er" one universe at a time....
an interesting side note--wf isn't, apparently, responsible for the creation of EARTH PRIME:
he didn't even know how it could have come to be. odd. here again he insists he creates "worlds":
now i know there is a lot of merging terminology in comics, but i don't think i've ever once seen worlds taken to mean...multiverses. a lot of mixed terminology was used throughout the arc, tbh. universe and multiverse seemed to be almost interchangeable at times, which makes understanding the scope a bit....subjective, admittedly. even assuming the anvil held a new multiverse, there is still no reason to suspect wf did anything but build it one universe at a time. maybe he took only the BEST universes that he brought into being and stuck them all together? i dunno. no one does, because it's never really explained.
anyway, all of that just to say that i don't think wf is any more a multiversal power than franklin is. now it's true frank couldn't anchor the universe in place, but he could still shape them, but as we saw with heroes reborn, he IS capable of creating a universe on his own. in terms of overall power, i think frank and wf are very very close.
tl;dr /shrug
To be fair, He needed Mxyzptlk to erase the "Prime" Universe because that's the Source of everything. If the Prime Universe is replaced, the entire Multiverse gets replaced. He couldn't go to the 3rd Dimension as his body wasn't designed to go there, he only could go there after he created a new body cell by cell. That's the same reason he fought Superman using a body he created.
Alberto, normally I’d consider you a troll
But now, I do think you’re just stupid. The fact that you don’t even know why he wanted Mxy to “Unimagine” everything is.
No one here is asking you read a law book. This is a comic book, you can’t comprehend the few words, you should probably go back and get an education.
Let’s try again, re-read JL21-25, come back and answer why Mxy HAD to be one to erase existence and not WF
Originally posted by abhilegend
Because the planet was in sixth dimension which is infinitely bigger than fifth, Fourth and especially 3rd dimension multiverse which was destroyed.Mxy alone transcends 3D multiverse and he is merely 5th dimensional.
Sixth dimension transcends even fifth dimension. Now are you able to understand the dimension hierarchy?
Oh God I don't even want to get started on DC dimensional tiering bullshit.
Fact is several things had to happen for WF feat to happen and is not something he could do on a whim.
Superman pis feat means nothing also esp. when had a great deal to do with cosmic anvil being destroyed
Originally posted by abhilegend
You're right, the colorist doesn't know the plot or the script of the comic he is working on.What was I thinking?
“Superman destroyed a multiverse because I colored him doing that.” How does that really sound. Unless the artist has some specific saying that he was told by the writer that this doesn’t hold a lot of weight at all.
Originally posted by Demon of Heaven
Oh God I don't even want to get started on DC dimensional tiering bullshit.Fact is several things had to happen for WF feat to happen and is not something he could do on a whim.
Superman pis feat means nothing also esp. when had a great deal to do with cosmic anvil being destroyed
