Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Except Steve was standing relatively straight, on the hood and windshield of a car, not the ground, which detracts from that. But he actually had his one foot braced in front of the other, knees slightly bent, so that he could properly brace and push back, which made a difference. Then there is also stuff like this, which didn't even make him budge:And I disagree about it being a toss-up. One guy has a feat which can at least partially be attributed to surprise/his opponent being off balance. The other guy can outright lift and carry armored, fully-grown men by the neck with one hand.
Standing relatively straight with his shield angled at a diagonal. In other words, it wasn't parallel to the ground.
And let's be honest here, in that gif you just posted Thor was clearly delivering a downward blow against Cap's shield which was meant to be a glancing hit, not a direct hit against Cap.
As for Cap being surprised, sure he was, but let's not forget that he's also superhuman, who's reflexes and balance are good enough to still land on his feet after a surprise rush from Quicksilver. And like I said, you're ignoring the fact that Cap was already on his feet and was able to bring his shield to bear the 2nd time he was knocked on his ass. Was he fully prepared? No. But he certainly wasn't surprised anymore.
Besides, yes Cap was on the back foot when he got knocked down, but Batman was also not doing anything to stop Bane from lifting him up.
Again, I never said Batroc was stronger than Bane. But being able to push Cap around like that, even if he got the drop on him, is no small feat. BW also got the drop on WS and she barely managed to budge him.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Standing relatively straight with his shield angled at a diagonal. In other words, it wasn't parallel to the ground.And let's be honest here, in that gif you just posted Thor was clearly delivering a downward blow against Cap's shield which was meant to be a glancing hit, not a direct hit against Cap.
As for Cap being surprised, sure he was, but let's not forget that he's also superhuman, who's reflexes and balance are good enough to still land on his feet after a surprise rush from Quicksilver. And like I said, you're ignoring the fact that Cap was already on his feet and was able to bring his shield to bear the 2nd time he was knocked on his ass. Was he fully prepared? No. But he certainly wasn't surprised anymore.
Besides, yes Cap was on the back foot when he got knocked down, but Batman was also not doing anything to stop Bane from lifting him up.
Again, I never said Batroc was stronger than Bane. But being able to push Cap around like that, even if he got the drop on him, is no small feat. BW also got the drop on WS and she barely managed to budge him.
He was standing at a slopped angle against Bucky (one foot literally against a windshield), hence the angle of the punch. Not because he was bracing from below. The direction of the shockwave of Thor's hit and the damage it does to a small platoon of Hydra soldiers disagrees with your assessment, considering that action=opposite reaction, so even the glancing hit will reflect back to a degree on Steve. And I am ignoring what? You mean I didn't explicitly state how being on your feet doesn't mean you are planted. You mean I didn't point out that it greatly depends on how your legs and feet are positioned? Oh, wait, I did. So, please explain to me how I am ignoring that.
And Quicksilver delivering a single shoulderblock before buggering off is not the same as repeatedly hitting a guy. If Quicksilver had repeatedly rammed Cap and he landed on his feet every time, then you would have a point.
I find it interesting how you go on about how great a feat this is for Batroc, yet every example I post of Steve blocking hits you find an excuse to downplay or dismiss it. So, then why is it a good feat for Batroc? I am done doing your job for you. Post examples of Steve blocking hits parallel to the ground with his shield to prove it's an impressive feat for Batroc. Because doing what Bane did is pretty much impossible by real-world standards.
And Batman wasn't trying to resist? I guess he was just pulling at Bane's wrist at his throat for shits and giggles.
So, back your claim. Prove that what Batroc did is comparable to what Bane did.
I've got zero problems with people arguing that Batroc is faster, more skilled and more agile, or with people arguing that he can win this. If he hammers Bane's mask with a rapid series of kicks, there is a decent chance IMO that he could do some damage to it, at which point Bane might be in trouble. My only contention is strength, based on the points already raised.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Batroc is visibly faster, more skilled and agile.IMO, he wins.
Being visibly faster isn't an automatic win. Bane has the necessary speed and skill to block attacks.
I'm not sure if Batroc can even hurt Bane significantly enough.
I'm not sure if Batroc is significantly more skilled, flashy kicks and flips doesn't prove better fighting skill to me.
Bane can seriously hurt Batroc with strikes and is much stronger if the two grappled.
Baleman even being over the hill overpowered Bane's strength/arm, and his blows were affecting Bane before the mask exploit.
Also it was Balemans left arm vs. Bane's right.
This is shown around the 2:05 mark.
Originally posted by h1a8
Being visibly faster isn't an automatic win. Bane has the necessary speed and skill to block attacks.I'm not sure if Batroc can even hurt Bane significantly enough.
I'm not sure if Batroc is significantly more skilled, flashy kicks and flips doesn't prove better fighting skill to me.
Bane can seriously hurt Batroc with strikes and is much stronger if the two grappled.
Prove that Bane has the speed and skill needed to block attacks.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
He was standing at a slopped angle against Bucky (one foot literally against a windshield), hence the angle of the punch. Not because he was bracing from below. The direction of the shockwave of Thor's hit and the damage it does to a small platoon of Hydra soldiers disagrees with your assessment, considering that action=opposite reaction, so even the glancing hit will reflect back to a degree on Steve. And I am ignoring what? You mean I didn't explicitly state how being on your feet doesn't mean you are planted. You mean I didn't point out that it greatly depends on how your legs and feet are positioned? Oh, wait, I did. So, please explain to me how I am ignoring that.And Quicksilver delivering a single shoulderblock before buggering off is not the same as repeatedly hitting a guy. If Quicksilver had repeatedly rammed Cap and he landed on his feet every time, then you would have a point.
I find it interesting how you go on about how great a feat this is for Batroc, yet every example I post of Steve blocking hits you find an excuse to downplay or dismiss it. So, then why is it a good feat for Batroc? I am done doing your job for you. Post examples of Steve blocking hits parallel to the ground with his shield to prove it's an impressive feat for Batroc. Because doing what Bane did is pretty much impossible by real-world standards.
And Batman wasn't trying to resist? I guess he was just pulling at Bane's wrist at his throat for shits and giggles.
So, back your claim. Prove that what Batroc did is comparable to what Bane did.
Hey man, you're the one who questioned my stance, not me who questioned yours. So lay off the attitude.
I don't NEED to prove that what Batroc did was comparable to what Bane did because I never claimed that. I never said who was stronger but posted examples of their strength feats. You made the claim that it wasn't a strength feat that Batroc knocked Cap of his feat, so you prove it. Don't ask me to prove something I never claimed. You keep dissing Batroc's feats without considering the fact that 1. Cap is superhuman and 2. That his shield has energy absorption abilities.
But sure, I'll give you some things to think about.
the world record for a military press is 485 lbs. Divide that by two and it's not exactly impossible to lift a 200+ man with one arm, at least as far as action movie logic goes. A good number of dancers, gymnasts and even I've skaters are able to lift their partners with one hand. Granted their partners probably aren't as heavy as Batman and there's more cooperation there, but it still proves that it's not completely impossible.
In comparison, can you name me a time when a regular human knocked a super soldier in their ass multiple times in the MCU?
I don't know how to post gifs, but there's also this:
https://images.app.goo.gl/Fv6ZBEh3GLg7VgV48
Originally posted by FrothByte
Hey man, you're the one who questioned my stance, not me who questioned yours. So lay off the attitude.I don't NEED to prove that what Batroc did was comparable to what Bane did because I never claimed that. I never said who was stronger but posted examples of their strength feats. You made the claim that it wasn't a strength feat that Batroc knocked Cap of his feat, so you prove it. Don't ask me to prove something I never claimed. You keep dissing Batroc's feats without considering the fact that 1. Cap is superhuman and 2. That his shield has energy absorption abilities.
But sure, I'll give you some things to think about.
the world record for a military press is 485 lbs. Divide that by two and it's not exactly impossible to lift a 200+ man with one arm, at least as far as action movie logic goes. A good number of dancers, gymnasts and even I've skaters are able to lift their partners with one hand. Granted their partners probably aren't as heavy as Batman and there's more cooperation there, but it still proves that it's not completely impossible.
In comparison, can you name me a time when a regular human knocked a super soldier in their ass multiple times in the MCU?
I don't know how to post gifs, but there's also this:
https://images.app.goo.gl/Fv6ZBEh3GLg7VgV48
I will lay off the attitude when you don't accuse me of ignoring things I clearly addressed or accuse me of saying things I didn't. And you said it was a toss up. Toss up generally means hard to pick between the two i.e. comparable.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I just posted their strength feats to show that it was a toss up.
And no, I said Batroc's feat was not a pure strength feat. That there were other factors involved. Which I have addressed in previous posts. I did not say that it is not a strength feat at all.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Batroc knocking Steve off his feet isn't a pure strength showing though.
That's been addressed before in Bane-related threads. Picking someone up by the neck is different than, say, holding someone centre mass, like some skaters/dancers do. It has to do with the actual grip available and weight distribution to perform the lift, which is why we don't actually see grown men being one-hand-hauled around by the neck in real-life, unlike the other examples. Nemebro has gone quite in-depth into this in multiple of these threads in the past, even referencing that other big-ass dumbbell with the thick grip and name that escapes me now.
Anyway, I sincerely doubt this discussion is going anywhere productive from this point on. Because I am not even remotely more convinced that Batroc is as strong as Bane is than when we started. And you don't seem like you have any intention of changing your view either. So, I'm out. I'm going to see if Hyperdrive on Netflix is actually worth watching. Because I have no interest in getting dragged into a potentially circular argument, like the ones where people basically just repeat themselves over and over using different wording, like the Faora vs Wonder Woman, Superman vs Captain Marvel etc. threads. And based on the distinct lack of progress despite multiple exchanges now, this looks to be heading that way.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I will lay off the attitude when you don't accuse me of ignoring things I clearly addressed or accuse me of saying things I didn't. And you said it was a toss up. Toss up generally means hard to pick between the two i.e. comparable.And no, I said Batroc's feat was not a pure strength feat. That there were other factors involved. Which I have addressed in previous posts. I did not say that it is not a strength feat at all.
That's been addressed before in Bane-related threads. Picking someone up by the neck is different than, say, holding someone centre mass, like some skaters/dancers do. It has to do with the actual grip available and weight distribution to perform the lift, which is why we don't actually see grown men being one-hand-hauled around by the neck in real-life, unlike the other examples. Nemebro has gone quite in-depth into this in multiple of these threads in the past, even referencing that other big-ass dumbbell with the thick grip and name that escapes me now.
Anyway, I sincerely doubt this discussion is going anywhere productive from this point on. Because I am not even remotely more convinced that Batroc is as strong as Bane is than when we started. And you don't seem like you have any intention of changing your view either. So, I'm out. I'm going to see if Hyperdrive on Netflix is actually worth watching. Because I have no interest in getting dragged into a potentially circular argument, like the ones where people basically just repeat themselves over and over using different wording, like the Faora vs Wonder Woman, Superman vs Captain Marvel etc. threads. And based on the distinct lack of progress despite multiple exchanges now, this looks to be heading that way.
Those last few sentences... wow. Was that a backhanded insult?
Jeeze Vault, I did not expect that from you. I don't mind debating with you regarding different opinions, even if it might get heated. But I certainly didn't expect personal insults from you.
Anyway, I said you ignored stuff because you did ignore the fact that Cap's shield was at an angle when he blocked WS's blow and because you ignored that Thor's hit was obviously a glancing blow not meant to knock Cap off his feet.
And yes, I was part of those debates regarding Bane's strength. I did not say gymnasts could replicate the feat. I posted those examples to show that Bane's feat is not too much out of the realm of possibility, no more than the ability to knock a superhuman off his feat at least.
I also see that you ignored my last post regarding the drop kick against an unsuspecting Arnold.
And yes, it's a toss up. Can't say I see Batroc lifting Batman up by one hand but neither do I see Bane knocking Cap on his ass repeatedly.
In any case, I don't know what I did to piss you off so. It's not like we're not allowed to disagree with each other here. It is a debate forum after all.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Those last few sentences... wow. Was that a backhanded insult?Jeeze Vault, I did not expect that from you. I don't mind debating with you regarding different opinions, even if it might get heated. But I certainly didn't expect personal insults from you.
Anyway, I said you ignored stuff because you did ignore the fact that Cap's shield was at an angle when he blocked WS's blow and because you ignored that Thor's hit was obviously a glancing blow not meant to knock Cap off his feet.
And yes, I was part of those debates regarding Bane's strength. I did not say gymnasts could replicate the feat. I posted those examples to show that Bane's feat is not too much out of the realm of possibility, no more than the ability to knock a superhuman off his feat at least.
I also see that you ignored my last post regarding the drop kick against an unsuspecting Arnold.
And yes, it's a toss up. Can't say I see Batroc lifting Batman up by one hand but neither do I see Bane knocking Cap on his ass repeatedly.
In any case, I don't know what I did to piss you off so. It's not like we're not allowed to disagree with each other here. It is a debate forum after all.
No, it was not a back-handed insult. It was a statement of fact. A lot of threads end up at a point where it is clearly not going anywhere, yet people persist for some reason. This is a general observation of the MvF board. I used to do it myself until I realised I was literally spending hours repeating myself to no effect where I could have been doing something else instead.
And no, I did not ignore those things. I directly addressed the angles of the hits and why they were like that. If Cap is standing at a slope, then his shield will be at a slope while holding it right in front of him. And I pointed out the directionality of the blow, as well as the physics that would reflect back on Steve.So, when you claim I say something isn't a strength feat when I said it isn't a "pure strength feat", when you claim I ignore things I addressed, you are outright strawmanning me. And then you wonder why I get annoyed. I can disagree with someone all day, but when they start misrepresenting my statements, then we have an issue. And me equating "toss up" to "comparable" (given the similarity in meaning and implication) is not the same as that.
And that Arnold gif is a bad example. One, the guy is a lot smaller than him. Two, he is not a trained fighter. Three, he did not launch repeated kicks, unlike Batroc. But the most important one is Four, if you actually look at the whole footage (which actually happened here, in SA, a few months ago), you will see that the kick actually did knock him forward into the camera:
And this is where I refer back to my first paragraph. I have basically typed out a small essay here, taking several minutes to do so, yet I doubt it's going to make any difference whatsoever to either of our views on the matter. Hence my previous long-winded way of essentially saying, let's agree to disagree.
Originally posted by FrothBytethe world record for a military press is 485 lbs. Divide that by two and it's not exactly impossible to lift a 200+ man with one arm, at least as far as action movie logic goes. A good number of dancers, gymnasts and even I've skaters are able to lift their partners with one hand. Granted their partners probably aren't as heavy as Batman and there's more cooperation there, but it still proves that it's not completely impossible.
It's not impossible to lift 200+ pounds with one arm, but to do it by the neck is. Neck lifting is impossible unless there is a significant difference in mass between the two people. I'd imagine Halfthor could probably neck lift Peter Dinklage for example. No one can neck lift someone approximately their own size.
It isn't just the weight you see, it's the fact that a man's neck is too thick.
Compare the Thomas Inch dumbell, which is 172 pounds, but is notoriously hard to lift due primarily to the thickness of its grip, which is about the same as a coke can apparently. As far as I know only Mark Henry has managed to get it over his head with a one handed clean and jerk.
So to recap, it is considered extremely difficult to the point where only one extraordinarily strong man has been verified to do it to lift this dumbell. Batman in full gear is heavier than this dumbell, and his armoured neck is much thicker than its grip, but Bane held him in the air and easily walked with him with a single hand clenched on his throat.
I don't know how to post gifs, but there's also this:
https://images.app.goo.gl/Fv6ZBEh3GLg7VgV48
Arnold was kicked into someone else, he wasn't kicked while isolated, not a good example.
But this entire debate is dumb. Why is that? Because hitting hard =/= being physically strong.
Mark Henry is likely over four times stronger than Mike Tyson was in his prime. Which of these men do you think punched harder? So even if Batroc kicks harder than Bane punches, it doesn't prove he wouldn't be strangled to death in a grapple.
And just or fun, let's have some more Bane strength feats, like this one where Bane snaps one of his men's necks by squeezing:
Now, one might be inclined to argue he didn't necessarily snap his neck, but let's see what the film's subtitles say:
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/10/105634/3678020-screenshot%20neck%20snap.png
But yeah, if you want to compare feats, compare Batroc knocking Cap over with a barrage of kicks he wasn't prepared for to feats like, idk, punching holes in that pillar or breaking Batman's mask with a few punches.
I don't feel particularly strongly about this fight and understand why so many are willing to give a guy who made Captain America get a little serious the win, even if I feel that his sole claim to fame is effectively unquantifiable in any meaningful sense (he knocked Cap down, but Cap wasn't braced or ready, and it's not like he was any to do any damage to Cap). But the arguments trying to force some sort of parity in brute strength aren't really convincing and don't hold up to much scrutiny.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
No, it was not a back-handed insult. It was a statement of fact. A lot of threads end up at a point where it is clearly not going anywhere, yet people persist for some reason. This is a general observation of the MvF board. I used to do it myself until I realised I was literally spending hours repeating myself to no effect where I could have been doing something else instead.And no, I did not ignore those things. I directly addressed the angles of the hits and why they were like that. If Cap is standing at a slope, then his shield will be at a slope while holding it right in front of him. And I pointed out the directionality of the blow, as well as the physics that would reflect back on Steve.So, when you claim I say something isn't a strength feat when I said it isn't a "pure strength feat", when you claim I ignore things I addressed, you are outright strawmanning me. And then you wonder why I get annoyed. I can disagree with someone all day, but when they start misrepresenting my statements, then we have an issue. And me equating "toss up" to "comparable" (given the similarity in meaning and implication) is not the same as that.
And that Arnold gif is a bad example. One, the guy is a lot smaller than him. Two, he is not a trained fighter. Three, he did not launch repeated kicks, unlike Batroc. But the most important one is Four, if you actually look at the whole footage (which actually happened here, in SA, a few months ago), you will see that the kick actually did knock him forward into the camera:
And this is where I refer back to my first paragraph. I have basically typed out a small essay here, taking several minutes to do so, yet I doubt it's going to make any difference whatsoever to either of our views on the matter. Hence my previous long-winded way of essentially saying, let's agree to disagree.
1. Arnold had his back turned when he was kicked. Cap was facing Batroc and had his shield up the 2nd time he was kicked.
2. The guy kicking Arnold was not a martial artist, but old Arnold is also nowhere near Captain America's stats.
3. Arnold was knocked into someone else but it's not like he fully collapsed onto someone. Also, see #1 regarding Cap facing Batroc with shield in place. Let's not keep ignoring that fact shall we?
When I say you "ignored" something, I'm not saying you didn't address it but rather that you ignored (or probably better to say downplayed) it's significance. Like how you're downplaying the fact that being able to brace yourself underneath a shield, even if at an angle, grants you way better leverage then bracing against a parallel hit. You made an argument, got frustrated when I pointed out inconsistencies in the proof you provided, then tried to shift burden of proof to me.
Now you accuse me of strawmanning when you're the one arguing with me about statements I never made.
Anyway, you're right about one thing: this isn't a debate worth having if you agree that Batroc wins anyway.
Just a few points I'd like to address though. "Toss up" does not mean "comparable". It means indecisive. It means we don't have enough info to judge a clear winner from. Nemebro made a good point: striking strength is not the same as lifting strength. Which one is more important in a fight like this? I'm not sure, which is why I said it's a toss up.
