Captain Marvel vs. Justice League

Originally posted by NemeBro
This is wrong, but true in the context of comparing her to Superman.

This is also largely wrong on a one on one basis, especially after her awakening at the end of her film.

This is true.

This is also likely true.

Also probably true.

Anyway, Superman solos. 👆

Don't recall CM showing any combat super speed. I mean, she was quick, but not to the point of showing super speed.

WW had trouble fighting Luddendorf, Ares and Steppenwolf... all of whom didn't seem to display any superspeed.

A best case scenario for Superman is he blitzes team MCU right at the start, knocks down Thor and CM and kills Strange. Thor engages his lightning cloak and CM goes binary. At this point it becomes a toss up, as we don't know if Superman can still take on them with their defenses up.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Lol, what a fallacious comparison!!!

Except Surtur is covered with lava and was tanking gargantuan spikes casted by Hela without much of a flinch!

You are certainly trolling now, seems all your wildcards are gone.

A direct combat showing has more weight than some missile nonsense. You know this. Carol fights at normal human speed based on feats.

And Hulk was still impotent against him, which is my point.

Nice try, but you can't deflect this one. Hulkbuster matched an enraged Hulk in strength, and Cull was taking the armor apart. The same Cull Obsidian that was getting tossed around by Spider-man. Have fun trying to refute that.

Originally posted by Psychotron
A direct combat showing has more weight than some missile nonsense. You know this. Carol fights at normal human speed based on feats.

And Hulk was still impotent against him, which is my point.

Nice try, but you can't deflect this one. Hulkbuster matched an enraged Hulk in strength, and Cull was taking the armor apart. The same Cull Obsidian that was getting tossed around by Spider-man. Have fun trying to refute that.

So you agree that the scene actually portrays super reflexes? Nice! 👆

You asked me to prove that Carol had super reflexes, and I have. The circumstances where they were portrayed is irrelevant.

What does anything of that have to do here? Hulk moving Surtur is a strength feat regardless of the other feats! Superman has no similar one!

You mean back in AoU? You do know that characters evolve right? Spiderman, the one who was holding a ferry cargo?

None of that proves that Hulk is less strong than Supes. You are desperate now.

I wanna see WW solo Thor,Strange, and Marvel

Originally posted by FrothByte
Let's make some honest observations here:

1. Carol has never shown combat super speed
2. WW has trouble fighting opponents without superspeed and, other than shoulder bashing Ares, we've never seen her actually speed-blitz a skilled opponent.
3. Superman is demonstrably faster than any of team MCU by quite a margin.
4. Superman is not strong enough to oneshot either Thor or CM
5. The only combatant here who actually has a feat of oneshotting a high-end opponent is Thor.
6. Strange can be one-shot by majority of team DCEU if he doesn't get his shields up.
7. If combatants don't have knowledge about each other, they'll be unprepared for team MCU's ability to BFR.

Good breakdown Froth.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
So you agree that the scene actually portrays super reflexes? Nice! 👆

You asked me to prove that Carol had super reflexes, and I have. The circumstances where they were portrayed is irrelevant.

What does anything of that have to do here? Hulk moving Surtur is a strength feat regardless of the other feats! Superman has no similar one!

You mean back in AoU? You do know that characters evolve right? Spiderman, the one who was holding a ferry cargo?

None of that proves that Hulk is less strong than Supes. You are desperate now.

Nope. I'm not impressed by it.

You failed. Superman is blitzing WW (a bullet timer herself) and keeping up with Flash, while Carol cannot even stop Thanos from removing the power stone and using it on her.

Hulk only "moved" him when Surtur was surprised. His next attacks didn't do shit to Surtur.

Hulk hasn't demonstrated and any strength growth, however. He has been consistently jobbing in every movie since the first Avengers. Spider-man is strong, but he should never be strong enough to overpower someone who is Hulk+ in stats.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Nope. I'm not impressed by it.

You failed. Superman is blitzing WW (a bullet timer herself) and keeping up with Flash, while Carol cannot even stop Thanos from removing the power stone and using it on her.

Hulk only "moved" him when Surtur was surprised. His next attacks didn't do shit to Surtur.

Hulk hasn't demonstrated and any strength growth, however. He has been consistently jobbing in every movie since the first Avengers. Spider-man is strong, but he should never be strong enough to overpower someone who is Hulk+ in stats.

Your personal opinion, as much as it's respected, is invalid. Just as Quanchi not being impressed by anything that isn't Thanos, isn't valid.

WW was fighting Superman! What are you talking about!?

Also, who told you that Marvel's heroes don't have super-reflexes!? We've seen the likes of Thor, Spiderman, Captain America easily dodging, blocking and reflecting bullets and energy projections!

Being suprised has no bearing on a person's normal weight. Stop lowballing.

LOL! Hulk was holding the entire Avenger's facility in EG, while being handicapped! That feat is way more impressive than anything done by him in AOU or Avg. 1!

Damn, this is lowballing took to the h1 level!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Concession accepted, you haven't watched Captain Marvel.

YouTube video

Those ballistic missiles are fast enough to reach the surface in 4s, as we saw they did back in Torfa at the beginning of the movie!

If Captain Marvel would have taken longer than that, the other missiles that she wasn't holding would have stroke the planet!

That means that the whole scene where she is holding the missile is taking within seconds of time, yet she is perceiving everything slower!!!

[B]Seems you are done here!

Carol is faster and has way better reflexes than Superman, just give up [/B]

You are completely wrong on that scene. Yon Rogg is witnessing that scene in real time when he gets out of the ship. From the first missle fire to when they blow up..Its almost 40 seconds of time. So does he see things in slow motion as well? It is about 5 seconds from first missle fire to the rest being fired from multiple ships at different distances. Not to mention it does keep moving forward for a few more seconds. When she grabs the first missile to when she throws it back is around 10-11 seconds.

Carol is a beast. Not going to deny that but she does not have combat speed on par with Superman. Her fight with Thanos proves that.

Originally posted by John Murdoch
Good breakdown Froth.

Thanks. Way too much lowballing from both sides in this argument. When dealing with characters these powerful, no team is going to have an easy time winning against the other.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Your personal opinion, as much as it's respected, is invalid. Just as Quanchi not being impressed by anything that isn't Thanos, isn't valid.

WW was fighting Superman! What are you talking about!?

Also, who told you that Marvel's heroes don't have super-reflexes!? We've seen the likes of Thor, Spiderman, Captain America easily dodging, blocking and reflecting bullets and energy projections!

Being suprised has no bearing on a person's normal weight. Stop lowballing.

LOL! Hulk was holding the entire Avenger's facility in EG, while being handicapped! That feat is way more impressive than anything done by him in AOU or Avg. 1!

[B]Damn, this is lowballing took to the h1 level! [/B]

Don't compare me to that imbecile.

She was literally a statue when he was fighting Flash. He also blitzed her when she tried her gauntlet attack.

Captain America and especially Spider-man have enhanced reflexes as part of their powerset. Not to mention Peter's spider sense. However, they're nowhere near Diana, never mind Superman and Flash. Thor hasn't demonstrated any superhuman speed as far as I can remember. Tony was keeping up with him just fine in the first Avengers movie. Until you show me a legit super speed combat feat from Carol there's nothing to discuss. She gets blitzed as that is fully withing Superman's character as of JL.

Explain why Hulk's next punches were completely impotent against Surtur once the element of surprise was gone. Surely if Hulk is strong enough to move his whole body his punches should move his head at least?

Is that supposed to be impressive? He had to be saved by Giant Man. Superman casually carried an entire apartment complex without breaking a sweat while Hulk was being crushed to death by the Avengers base.

Originally posted by FrothByte
WW had trouble fighting Luddendorf, Ares and Steppenwolf... all of whom didn't seem to display any superspeed.

What kind of logic is this? We know Diana has legit super speed. If they kept up with her that means they're fast too, not the other way around.

Originally posted by WolvesofBabylon
You are completely wrong on that scene. Yon Rogg is witnessing that scene in real time when he gets out of the ship. From the first missle fire to when they blow up..Its almost 40 seconds of time. So does he see things in slow motion as well? It is about 5 seconds from first missle fire to the rest being fired from multiple ships at different distances. Not to mention it does keep moving forward for a few more seconds. When she grabs the first missile to when she throws it back is around 10-11 seconds.

Carol is a beast. Not going to deny that but she does not have combat speed on par with Superman. Her fight with Thanos proves that.

If you do a little bit of analysis, reality is quite another.

First, let's consider two things:
1. We saw the same ballistic missiles striking Trofa in matters of seconds! I personally counted 4 seconds!
2. Slow-motion isn't a 'must' for characters to have super-reflexes.

Slow motion is only a tool to give effect! The fact that Marvel doesn't use slow motion in his fighting scenes doesn't mean that their characters lack super-reflexes. This is a massive misconception many in this forum have!

Again, we've seen the likes of Thor, Captain America, Spider Man, and many others to easily dodge and block things like bullets, energy attacks, etc! The fact that those scenes possess no slow-motion effects, like the ones DC has, doesn't mean the heroes have normal human reflexes! That's pure nonesense right there!

Now, let's move directly with Carol!

We saw that her scene with the missiles was way longer than the scene at the beginning of the movie, where the same ships and the same type of weapons were demolishing Trofa's surface in matters of seconds!

Does that mean that the missiles were moving slower in Earth? You'll have to prove that!

However, you might ask me to prove otherwise, well here it is:

Earthly Ballistic Missiles

Reentry vehicles reenter the Earth's atmosphere at very high velocities, on the order of 6–8 kilometers per second:

So, Earthly ballistic missiles move when in reentry at speeds of about [COLOR=crimson]mach 18 to mach 23![/B] '

Any normal human being being pushed at those speeds would have their sight's blured!!!!!

The Kree Empire is one of the most advanced races in the MCU, having galactic capabilities! Are you suggesting that those missiles are slower than Earthly ones!?

So, after considering that, I don't think it's insane to thing that A)Those missiles were moving as fast as the beginning of the movie and B) Captain Marvel would still need super-reflexes to stop them!

Also, you forget that Yon Rogg isn't a human being, but a Kree! As most peak Alien races, he does possess super-human reflexes!

[B]So, cut the "Carol has no super-reflexes" nonesense once and for all

Originally posted by Psychotron
Don't compare me to that imbecile.

She was literally a statue when he was fighting Flash. He also blitzed her when she tried her gauntlet attack.

Captain America and especially Spider-man have enhanced reflexes as part of their powerset. Not to mention Peter's spider sense. However, they're nowhere near Diana, never mind Superman and Flash. Thor hasn't demonstrated any superhuman speed as far as I can remember. Tony was keeping up with him just fine in the first Avengers movie. Until you show me a legit super speed combat feat from Carol there's nothing to discuss. She gets blitzed as that is fully withing Superman's character as of JL.

Explain why Hulk's next punches were completely impotent against Surtur once the element of surprise was gone. Surely if Hulk is strong enough to move his whole body his punches should move his head at least?

Is that supposed to be impressive? He had to be saved by Giant Man. Superman casually carried an entire apartment complex without breaking a sweat while Hulk was being crushed to death by the Avengers base.

What kind of logic is this? We know Diana has legit super speed. If they kept up with her that means they're fast too, not the other way around.

That's because she was suspended in the air! WW can't fly, else she should have been able to keep up!

And once she was on land, she was able to engage Superman! Watch the scene!

Read my reply to WolvesofBabylone and give up to this heretic beliefs!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If you do a little bit of analysis, reality is quite another.

First, let's consider two things:
1. We saw the same ballistic missiles striking Trofa in matters of seconds! I personally counted 4 seconds!
2. Slow-motion isn't a 'must' for characters to have super-reflexes.

Slow motion is only a tool to give effect! The fact that Marvel doesn't use slow motion in his fighting scenes doesn't mean that their characters lack super-reflexes. This is a massive misconception many in this forum have!

Again, we've seen the likes of Thor, Captain America, Spider Man, and many others to easily dodge and block things like bullets, energy attacks, etc! The fact that those scenes possess no slow-motion effects, like the ones DC has, doesn't mean the heroes have normal human reflexes! [B]That's pure nonesense right there!

Now, let's move directly with Carol!

We saw that her scene with the missiles was way longer than the scene at the beginning of the movie, where the same ships and the same type of weapons were demolishing Trofa's surface in matters of seconds!

Does that mean that the missiles were moving slower in Earth? You'll have to prove that!

However, you might ask me to prove otherwise, well here it is:

Earthly Ballistic Missiles

So, Earthly ballistic missiles move when in reentry at speeds of about [COLOR=crimson]mach 18 to mach 23![/B] '

Any normal human being being pushed at those speeds would have their sight's blured!!!!!

The Kree Empire is one of the most advanced races in the MCU, having galactic capabilities! Are you suggesting that those missiles are slower than Earthly ones!?

So, after considering that, I don't think it's insane to thing that A)Those missiles were moving as fast as the beginning of the movie and B) Captain Marvel would still need super-reflexes to stop them!

Also, you forget that Yon Rogg isn't a human being, but a Kree! As most peak Alien races, he does possess super-human reflexes!

[B]So, cut the "Carol has no super-reflexes" nonesense once and for all [/B]

I never stated she doesnt have super reflexes. I said she doesnt have reflexes like Superman. Superman is way beyond Bullet timers and enhanced people.

Plus It is 25 seconds on film between when those missiles are launched before Carol even touches one. Plus all she did was catch one and threw it back at the others and flew through the explosion.

Like every other debate you are wrong. That scene was meant to show her strength not her speed.

Originally posted by WolvesofBabylon
I never stated she doesnt have super reflexes. I said she doesnt have reflexes like Superman. Superman is way beyond Bullet timers and enhanced people.

Plus It is 25 seconds on film between when those missiles are launched before Carol even touches one. Plus all she did was catch one and threw it back at the others and flew through the explosion.

Like every other debate you are wrong. That scene was meant to show her strength not her speed.

Thank you so much!!!!! Finally we can get pass the h1 type nonsense!

The other missiles are not slowing down, and are still going to hit earth in less than 4s! That means that Carol not only flew at such altitudes in less than 4s, but had to stop the other missiles by pushing one into the others.

Still, as you yourself stated, the actual screen-time is way beyond 4s! Which means that we were seeing the scene under Carol's perspective, not under our perspective!

Also, consider that the following:
1. The other missiles are closely following the first one
2. The other missiles are not slowing down
3. You need to descelerate and object first, to then change it's trajectory.

In other words, Carol has to be fast enough to not only descelerate the first missile, but to push it up in perfect tune so that she can hit the other ones, which again are easily moving at speeds way beyond mach 23

Considering that, Carol's reflexes are WAAAAYYYYYYYY beyond bullet timers!

And btw, many people place DCEU Superman's speed at beneath mach 20!

I haven't lost anything, I'm not the only one stating that Superman loses here!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That's because she was suspended in the air! WW can't fly, else she should have been able to keep up!

And once she was on land, she was able to engage Superman! Watch the scene!

Read my reply to WolvesofBabylone and give up to this heretic beliefs!

Are you purposefully acting retarded? Wonder Woman can fly. She flew at the end of her solo movie.

Is that why Superman easily blitzed her from several dozen meters away when she tried to cross her arms?

No, if you want a reply from me you'll adress my points, not someone else's.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Wonder Woman can fly. She flew at the end of her solo movie.

Pretty sure that was a jump.

Why would she jump in the river?

She never flew to my knowledge. She was unable to fly in bvs and justice leageue

She didn't fly. That doesn't mean she can't when she clearly flew in her own movie. And this is all irrelevant to the argument of speed.

I just don't remember it,not saying your wrong, I'm trying to find the clip on YouTube

Nm, you mean where she Kills Ares? She is definitely levitating or something, that's more than a jump.