Originally posted by Astner
So there are a couple of things I want to clarify.When I say "Skyfather" I'm referring to the strongest beings beneath the Abstracts. Odin, Zeus, Rune King Thor, All-Father Hercules, Surtur, Mephisto, Dormammu, Galactus, Dark Phoenix, and the Celestials all fall under this definition.
Some posters prefer further division of these characters, and while some of them tend to be more powerful than others it's still ambiguous enough to where I'd consider them to be in the same weight-class.
I call Chaos King a Skyfather because:[list=1][*]He never fought anyone stronger than a Skyfather.[*]He was defeated by a Skyfather.[/list=1]These characters, like I said, have the potential to destroy the 616 and all the realms associated with it.
The Chaos King's conquest was, according to the event and tie-ins, limited to the 616. He never attacked an Alternate Earth, a past, or a future. Not only isn't it shown on panel, it's never even hinted at. So there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that the Chaos War was on the scale of Time Runs Out.
As for Oblivion referring to it as the multiverse, all creation, or all the universes; it doesn't matter, for the same reason it doesn't matter that Amadeus Cho uses the term multiverse in the series.
Because regardless of what you call it it was just the 616 and it's never going to become more than the 616 because of what it's called.
This is just a repeat of your earlier point, I don't understand why you're just repeating yourself.
Originally posted by Astner
He didn't drive death out of the underworld. He simply freed the dead by destroying the underworld.Multiverse is used interchangeably with universe, and in this story it's referring to the 616 Universe and the various realms associated with it.
In Vertigo's Lucifer—which has nothing to do with Chaos War—Lucifer recreated God's creation in its totality. The fact that it's referred to as a universe or multiverse means nothing, because we know what it is: a duplicate of the creation the Presence presides over.
Skyfather-level beings like Odin and Galactus can threaten the universe as well, just as the Chaos King did. It's going to be a campaign, because it's not something they can do with the snap of a finger, and it's not certain that they're going to succeed, but they can do it.
But it's clear from the story that the Chaos King is a skyfather-level character, because he was defeated by All-Father Hercules and no opponent he fought was greater than skyfather-level.
Originally posted by TheHulkster
https://m.imgur.com/a/OSa3R
The only time we see Death in the series is in a tie-in where Death flees the underworld or at the very least the scene, when Pluto denies Ares his place in Elysium. And Pluto and Ares are around the same level of power, which is certainly not Abstract-level.
The main issue I have with your argument is that it relies on very specific interpretations of vaguely worded terms over what we actually see happening and what's explained to be happening in the story.
Not to mention that it's inconsistent with the cosmology as a whole. If the Chaos King was anywhere near as powerful as you suggest he is then he would not struggle as much as he did fighting regular gods, and he certainly wouldn't be defeated by All-Father Hercules.
Originally posted by Astner
No, he's an agent of Oblivion. Similar to Maelstrom. The difference is that Maelstrom would've become powerful enough to subjugate Oblivion.In fact, in an alternate universe where Maelstrom won he fought Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet for supremacy.
So how powerful is Oblivion? About as powerful as Eternity, Infinity, or Death.
during the Quasar run decades ago it was the M-Bodies of all the abstracts battling,
just because Oblivion's universal avatar equals infinity, eternity, and death does not apply to his true form. marvel fundamental abstracts in their heighest level are multiversal level. Eternity, Infinity or Death all have multiversal form as they embody in all of the multiverse.
Oblivion is the void before creation, he will be there when creation ends,everything springs from Oblivion's loins-- And everything returns to Oblivion's womb
https://i.imgur.com/PRWsxCi.jpg
it couldn't be clearer that he was talking about the entire marvel creaion as a whole, as he's breaking the fourth wall speaking to the readers
https://imgur.com/EMnoEqb
this scan clearly indicate that CK come close to succeeding destroying all universes (he destroyed 99 percent), the fact that CK is an aspect of Oblivion automatically means he's multiversal, Oblivion himself is beyond multiversal (void before creation). Not to mention CK was implied to be the counterpart of multi-eternity
Originally posted by MrMind
during the Quasar run decades ago it was the M-Bodies of all the abstracts battling,just because Oblivion's universal avatar equals infinity, eternity, and death does not apply to his true form. marvel fundamental abstracts in their heighest level are multiversal level. Eternity, Infinity or Death all have multiversal form as they embody in all of the multiverse.
The reason for the introduction of the m-body was to explain how Eternity could come back after the destruction by Adam Warlock's hand. The Abstracts naturally use their full power to protect their mouthpiece, so when an m-body is destroyed it's shows that the Abstract is unable to thwart the threat.
Originally posted by MrMind
Oblivion is the void before creation, he will be there when creation ends,everything springs from Oblivion's loins-- And everything returns to Oblivion's womb
https://i.imgur.com/PRWsxCi.jpgit couldn't be clearer that he was talking about the entire marvel creaion as a whole, as he's breaking the fourth wall speaking to the readers
https://imgur.com/EMnoEqbthis scan clearly indicate that CK come close to succeeding destroying all universes (he destroyed 99 percent), the fact that CK is an aspect of Oblivion automatically means he's multiversal, Oblivion himself is beyond multiversal (void before creation). Not to mention CK was implied to be the counterpart of multi-eternity
The only Abstract we know of that has a truly multiversal form is Eternity. Multi-Eternity was first introduced in the Abraxas arc, he was later introduced as Eternity in Ewing's stories. But Ewing made it clear that there are universal Eternities, and that they function as cells in the larger multiversal Eternity, according to Ewing in the QnA section of Ultimates 2 #5. And contrary to your theory these universal Eternities aren't m-bodies, they're actual Eternities.
Originally posted by Astner
So there are a couple of things I want to clarify.When I say "Skyfather" I'm referring to the strongest beings beneath the Abstracts. Odin, Zeus, Rune King Thor, All-Father Hercules, Surtur, Mephisto, Dormammu, Galactus, Dark Phoenix, and the Celestials all fall under this definition.
Some posters prefer further division of these characters, and while some of them tend to be more powerful than others it's still ambiguous enough to where I'd consider them to be in the same weight-class.
I call Chaos King a Skyfather because:[list=1][*]He never fought anyone stronger than a Skyfather.[*]He was defeated by a Skyfather.[/list=1]These characters, like I said, have the potential to destroy the 616 and all the realms associated with it.
Originally posted by Astner
The Chaos King's conquest was, according to the event and tie-ins, limited to the 616. He never attacked an Alternate Earth, a past, or a future. Not only isn't it shown on panel, it's never even hinted at. So there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that the Chaos War was on the scale of Time Runs Out.As for Oblivion referring to it as the multiverse, all creation, or all the universes; it doesn't matter, for the same reason it doesn't matter that Amadeus Cho uses the term multiverse in the series.
Because regardless of what you call it it was just the 616 and it's never going to become more than the 616 because of what it's called.
But going back to Zop's scan, it's highly implied that Oblivion was talking about "All Universes" as in the Marvel multiverse because of characters involved this time around.
Originally posted by zopzop
Wasn't it confirmed by Oblivion in a later issue that Chaos King did indeed almost destroy the entire multiverse?
Im talking about Scrier and The Other. This is especially with Scrier because when he is involved, there are multiversal implications. The nexus of realities which he is so keen on always protecting or watching over, it involves parallel universes. Im talking about universes with other earths and not just dimensions that have connection with 616.
