Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah your deaths were not even 3 times ours not long ago, but it is past 3times now and will likely get to 4 times.Out of all developed countries US has by far handled this the worst.
Still can't believe Trumps method of helping the Economy is pouring money into the Stock Market facepalm
That's not true: the US is #8 on the list for worst countries.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
Looking at the list of deaths per million, the UK is still #2. They handled it the second worst. Belgium is still #1.
The US is still #8 on the list. Brazil, Mexico, and India are swiftly catching up. India likely is not even capturing 1/5 the COVID-19 deaths, though.
Sweden keeps dropping down the list because they are done. They used to be #2 (UK took that spot from them).
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's not true: the US is #8 on the list for worst countries.https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
Looking at the list of deaths per million, the UK is still #2. They handled it the second worst. Belgium is still #1.
The US is still #8 on the list. Brazil, Mexico, and India are swiftly catching up. India likely is not even capturing 1/5 the COVID-19 deaths, though.
Sweden keeps dropping down the list because they are done. They used to be #2 (UK took that spot from them).
I think you completely misunderstood what I was pointing out there. And you're also showing how badly stats can misrepresent reality.
I said overall you've handled this bad situation worst out of all Developed countries, clearly indicating that our response has got better over time, but you guys just seem to be repeating the same mistakes, and how in terms of deeper economic impacts you've just been atrocious.
I said nothing about deaths per million. I'm pretty much ignoring deaths per million due to massively more and massively less densely populated areas.
And look, we in the UK handled this really badly (initially), but as I pointed out, your deaths were less than 3 times ours, just not too long ago, now you're way past 3 times ours, and on the way to being 4 times our total death toll. Why? Because after our terrible start, we've learned lessons, and got some kind of grip on the virus spread now.
(For context of the (per million) your massively more widespread population is just under 6 times ours.)
Now you don't judge Developed countries on how they've handled this just in terms of total deaths (or deaths per million). You're already the only developed nation not giving free healthcare to everyone, then on top of that you were the only developed nation (that I can think of) not to have some kind of government backed furlough scheme for workers. And yet you're the nation whose healthcare is usually linked to your employment facepalm
Yes I see all this praise for Sweden who out of the Scandinavian countries have had the worst death toll by far. But what do you think the US and UK's death tolls would have been if we took that approach? 150,000 for us and 500,000 for you maybe? And as I've mentioned other times, if there is a Vaccine available by next year, then Sweden really will look like dicks. If a vaccine however looks unlikely, then that will be the time for other nations to start considering a herd immunity type approach, but at a steady pace that hospitals can handle and when better treatments are developed, and whilst acting like a civilised nation that doesn't screw over it's working class in the interim.
Originally posted by Darth ThorBingo! 👆 very good post, many of the points many others have repeatedly explained to DDM over and over. At this point I am certain he is trolling.
I think you completely misunderstood what I was pointing out there. And you're also showing how badly stats can misrepresent reality.I said overall you've handled this bad situation worst out of all Developed countries, clearly indicating that our response has got better over time, but you guys just seem to be repeating the same mistakes, and how in terms of deeper economic impacts you've just been atrocious.
I said nothing about deaths per million. I'm pretty much ignoring deaths per million due to massively more and massively less densely populated areas.
And look, we in the UK handled this really badly (initially), but as I pointed out, your deaths were less than 3 times ours, just not too long ago, now you're way past 3 times ours, and on the way to being 4 times our total death toll. Why? Because after our terrible start, we've learned lessons, and got some kind of grip on the virus spread now.
(For context of the (per million) your massively more widespread population is just under 6 times ours.)
Now you don't judge Developed countries on how they've handled this just in terms of total deaths (or deaths per million). You're already the only developed nation not giving free healthcare to everyone, then on top of that you were the only developed nation (that I can think of) not to have some kind of government backed furlough scheme for workers. And yet you're the nation whose healthcare is usually linked to your employment facepalm
Yes I see all this praise for Sweden who out of the Scandinavian countries have had the worst death toll by far. But what do you think the US and UK's death tolls would have been if we took that approach? 150,000 for us and 500,000 for you maybe? And as I've mentioned other times, if there is a Vaccine available by next year, then Sweden really will look like dicks. If a vaccine however looks unlikely, then that will be the time for other nations to start considering a herd immunity type approach, but at a steady pace that hospitals can handle and when better treatments are developed, and whilst acting like a civilised nation that doesn't screw over it's working class in the interim.
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Originally posted by Darth Thor
I think you completely misunderstood what I was pointing out there. And you're also showing how badly stats can misrepresent reality.
That's incorrect.
The UK has done the worst of any country, by far, except for Belgium. Deaths per million is a far more realistic stat than total deaths because the infection of the population is almost ubiquitous over time (unless you can prove cascades of data wrong about how not easily the virus spreads?).
Mandatory quarantines for travelers, being able to adequately and properly treat the severely ill, and isolate the vulnerable are the only demonstrably effective measures to fight this virulent VRI. Not lockdowns. Not masks. Not shutting down business A but letting business B continue to operate.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I said overall you've handled this bad situation worst out of all Developed countries...
Again, the data simply doesn't support this statement of yours. Multiple developed countries have performed worse than the US. Did you know France is hitting a second wave, again?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
...clearly indicating that our response has got better over time, but you guys just seem to be repeating the same mistakes, and how in terms of deeper economic impacts you've just been atrocious.
If your point was lockdowns were not effective and they did more harm than good, you're correct. The US should never have locked down and they most certainly could have prevented literally tens of thousands of deaths if they had taken far better care of their elderly. We made the same mistake the UK did by housing elderly with other elderly after they tested positive to "free up room in hospitals" for the "un-handle-able" surge that never happened.
That's likely not your point at all.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I said nothing about deaths per million. I'm pretty much ignoring deaths per million due to massively more and massively less densely populated areas.
Correct, you didn't say deaths per million because it's a far more accurate stat to measure how a country performed. If you use that stat, it clearly shows how you're wrong. It's also a stat that epidemiologists use to determine how well a response has been and how hard the country was hit.
India is entering the worst of it, right now. FYI, we will likely see tens of thousands of more Indian deaths over the next few months. No matter what they do, this will happen.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And look, we in the UK handled this really badly (initially), but as I pointed out, your deaths were less than 3 times ours, just not too long ago, now you're way past 3 times ours, and on the way to being 4 times our total death toll. Why? Because after our terrible start, we've learned lessons, and got some kind of grip on the virus spread now.
Everything you said here is meaningless except for the last part. How the UK is handling it has improved. Your hospitalization death rate has improved greatly since the beginning. That's very good news. And I believe the UK also stopped rehousing elderly with other elderly.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes I see all this praise for Sweden who out of the Scandinavian countries have had the worst death toll by far.
Yet, the other 2 countries were already headed towards a downward trend, before they implemented lockdowns. Meaning, nothing those other 2 countries did actually mattered and did not effect their outcomes. Both countries have stated regret for locking down that it was unnecessary. Both countries have stated they will not implement mask policies.
I covered this very thoroughly with Lord Sorgo, already. Sweden has more densely populated areas (10+ vs. 2) than Norway or Finland. That's literally the only reason Sweden had more deaths.
But if you think you know more about their situation than the doctors and epidemiologists in Finland and Norway, feel free to contradict their positions and regret about their useless lockdowns.
Not to mention, Norway and Finland are going through a second wave.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
But what do you think the US and UK's death tolls would have been if we took that approach?
I can tell you. Because we already know.
Just from COVID-19, the US would have about 40,000 fewer deaths if we took Sweden's approach: we murdered our elderly with our care home policies, by the tens of thousands, just like the UK did. From the secondary effects of economic ruin, we'd have 1 million to 2 million fewer deaths over ten years and anywhere from 20,000-50,000 fewer suicides depending on how long the economic ruin lasts.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
150,000 for us and 500,000 for you maybe?
No. The UK might be at 30,000 and be done with the pandemic at this point if you had implemented Sweden's policies. The US would also be done and might be at 70K-90K had we implemented Sweden's policies.
You're forgetting that we do not have an affordable universal healthcare option. So we will experience massive amounts of death over the next 10 years from the economic ruin.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And as I've mentioned other times, if there is a Vaccine available by next year, then Sweden really will look like dicks. If a vaccine however looks unlikely, then that will be the time for other nations to start considering a herd immunity type approach, but at a steady pace that hospitals can handle and when better treatments are developed, and whilst acting like a civilised nation that doesn't screw over it's working class in the interim.
Why will Sweden look like dicks for saving many lives with their approach?
And, last I checked, rich, poor, educated, blue collar, etc. The coronavirus does not discriminate. So what are you talking about with this "working class" preaching?
Originally posted by Surtur
like which experts?and what are these experts opinions on mass protests, etc?
sad that this needs to be asked, but here we are
Experts like those in Finland and Sweden which state the science is not there so they will not implement mask policies.
Or the CDC themselves whose own compiled research and statements do not support mask policies.
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/t0131-2019-novel-coronavirus.html
“We don’t routinely recommend the use of face masks by the public to prevent respiratory illness,” said on January 31. “And we certainly are not recommending that at this time for this new virus.”
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/infectioncontrol/maskguidance.htm
asks are not usually recommended in non-healthcare settings; however, this guidance provides other strategies for limiting the spread of influenza viruses in the community:cover their nose and mouth when coughing or sneezing,
use tissues to contain respiratory secretions and, after use, to dispose of them in the nearest waste receptacle, and
perform hand hygiene (e.g., handwashing with non-antimicrobial soap and water, and alcohol-based hand rub if soap and water are not available) after having contact with respiratory secretions and contaminated objects/materials.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
Here, we review the evidence base on the effectiveness of nonpharmaceutical personal protective measures and environmental hygiene measures in nonhealthcare settings and discuss their potential inclusion in pandemic plans. Although mechanistic studies support the potential effect of hand hygiene or face masks, evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza. We similarly found limited evidence on the effectiveness of improved hygiene and environmental cleaning. We identified several major knowledge gaps requiring further research, most fundamentally an improved characterization of the modes of person-to-person transmission.
The CDC has gotten a bad rap during this pandemic but they've done their best, from what I can tell, to follow the science and not try and lie about the good or bad science.
If you want to see the difference between police training between the UK and the US:
When the police tried to break up a party in London, the partiers fought back. Throwing beers at the police. The police very carefully exited the confrontation. The UK's policing approach prioritizes life and person over enforcing the law. If confronting the people results in violence that otherwise would not happen, their approach is to issue fines and tackle it at a later date instead of beating them, gassing them, arresting them, etc.
No one dies. No one gets harmed. Fines are still issued for those that can be identified.