Originally posted by Lord Stark
Source never really specifies which iteration that is. But by ROTJ that's probably true. Yes. But ROTS Sidious still demolishes him. There's really no reason to think they wouldn't utilize the latest iteration of Sidious possible in that list.
The source is top 5 red lightsaber duelists. To me it's pretty clear they're referring to each duelist at their peak across all eras.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Source never really specifies which iteration that is. But by ROTJ that's probably true. Yes. But ROTS Sidious still demolishes him. There's really no reason to think they wouldn't utilize the latest iteration of Sidious possible in that list.
I would take it to be the height of their powers, not the same era.
I do think it's speculative to side with either, but with the wank Vader's been getting in canon along with just being a Sith Lord who actively fought several lightsaber duelists and battles over the course of over two decades I would argue that it is indeed very likely for Vader to have surpassed Yoda.
Originally posted by Forschbewithu
The source is top 5 red lightsaber duelists. To me it's pretty clear they're referring to each duelist at their peak across all eras.
The feats just make that wholly inconsistent. Sidious destroys 3 of the top swordmasters in the Order's history in ROTS. Vader cannot even one-shot the likes of Ferren Barr.
Originally posted by ScizardVader wanted him to channel his anger which ended in Vader being on his backside. Vader was raging against Kenobi in RotS yet he ended up losing so I do not care. I hear excuses.
In the canon ROTJ novelisation Vader is pushing back Luke until he uses the dark side, so it's only through a dark side amp that Vader is beaten.Losing at the hand of Kenobi is 2 decades pre-prime, that had an advantage due to his familiarity with Anakin's form which he changed after his injuries.
If we're playing it like that I can just say oh yeah Yoda got knocked out by a bunch of kids throwning stones at him w/o mentioning the specific circumstances.
Anakin had a familiarity with Kenobi as well. The bias of Vader fans only acknowledging it in his favor never the other way around. Both were familiar, Vader had an anger amp You yourself subscribe to but when he loses you sweep it all u dee the rug.
Yoda disarmed him. Sidious was fl or bust against the truly elite.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
The feats just make that wholly inconsistent. Sidious destroys 3 of the top swordmasters in the Order's history in ROTS. Vader cannot even one-shot the likes of Ferren Barr.
Inconsistency? That's Star Wars for ya, right?
Canon is canon until something else comes out that says otherwise . Looking at feats and in universe sources are great, but often open for interpretation.Out of universe facts and statements come first and put any debate to rest.
Originally posted by Forschbewithu
Inconsistency? That's Star Wars for ya, right?Canon is canon until something else comes out that says otherwise . Looking at feats and in universe sources are great, but often open for interpretation.Out of universe facts and statements come first and put any debate to rest.
No, not really. Even if you take it at face value there are a ton of factors that go into these fights. Otherwise, you'd never have scenarios like Kanan beating Maul. Matt Martin agrees, take books like that with a grain of salt.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader wanted him to channel his anger which ended in Vader being on his backside. Vader was raging against Kenobi in RotS yet he ended up losing so I do not care. I hear excuses.Anakin had a familiarity with Kenobi as well. The bias of Vader fans only acknowledging it in his favor never the other way around. Both were familiar, Vader had an anger amp You yourself subscribe to but when he loses you sweep it all u dee the rug.
Yoda disarmed him. Sidious was fl or bust against the truly elite.
Evidence for Yoda disarming Sidious? Don't believe that's in any canon sources.
And, that's for the story regardless. Either way Vader pushes Luke back until he's amped.
And having familarity is what allows the duel to last so long, the losing part is just Anakin being a retarded, not that I care for even discussing this battle, it's two decades past and completely irrelevent.
Originally posted by ScizardOf course. Why on earth would a "best of the best" list rank characters who are out of their prime?
I would take it to be the height of their powers, not the same era.
Originally posted by Lord StarkLightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018).
Source for the confusion haze?
Originally posted by Lord StarkIt is true that multiple factors often dictate how a battle will play out. However, what the list establishes is that in terms of pure saber skill, Vader > Palpatine.
No, not really. Even if you take it at face value there are a ton of factors that go into these fights. Otherwise, you'd never have scenarios like Kanan beating Maul. Matt Martin agrees, take books like that with a grain of salt.
This is important because in canon, RotS Palpatine > RotS Yoda in sabers, as established in Galaxy of Adventures (2019):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kstNsp5n_eU&t=0m12s
"[Palpatine] is even skilled enough with the dark side of the Force to defeat Jedi Grand Master Yoda in a lightsaber duel."
IOW, Vader > Palpatine > Yoda in sabers. I know that a lot of people don't like the notion that Vader ultimately became a better swordsman than Palpatine/Yoda, but canon is canon... Moreover, the fact that canon Vader never lost any power/potential after the events of RotS(to the contrary, he became more powerful than ever) should help consolidate his ability to reach that level. /shrug
So all that's really left to decide here is who has the superior Force power in a combat scenario.
As for Matt Martin: he has flat-out stated that random writer comments are non-canon in and of themselves. Ultimately, published material and official storytelling are what dictate the canon facts:
https://i.imgur.com/2N8lfor.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jeFfjrT.jpg
And everything mentioned so far on Vader's behalf comes from official storytelling.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
No, not really. Even if you take it at face value there are a ton of factors that go into these fights. Otherwise, you'd never have scenarios like Kanan beating Maul. Matt Martin agrees, take books like that with a grain of salt.
I never said the list is "Jedi A will beat Jedi b every single time." Matt Martin has said so from your quote, and even Nic Gillard said so before him.
We are in agreement so many factors go into a fight and rarely does the more powerful/skill combatant ever actually win the fight.
Originally posted by Galan007 Of course. Why on earth would a "best of the best" list rank characters who are out of their prime?
Why on earth would it not take into account the most popular/common incarnation of that individual? In the OT and the Sequel Trilogy, Palpatine doesn't even wield a lightsaber so it'd be strange to put him at the top. Assuming its ROTS Sidious is like assuming when referencing Vader its ROTS Vader or Comic Book Vader.
Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018).
Maul appears to use the same ability on Ahsoka and it clearly doesn't lower skill levels to Padawan levels. +The databank still says he kills them before they can react.
It is true that multiple factors often dictate how a battle will play out. However, what the list establishes is that in terms of pure saber skill, Vader > Palpatine.This is important because in canon, RotS Palpatine > RotS Yoda in sabers, as established in Galaxy of Adventures (2019):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kstNsp5n_eU&t=0m12s
"[Palpatine] is even skilled enough with the dark side of the Force to defeat Jedi Grand Master Yoda in a lightsaber duel."
No, it really doesn't. Lightsaber duel is commonly used to talk about the entire confrontation in canon. It literally is even in reference to his skill in the Dark Side of [I]the Force. And the final screenplays have Yoda disarming Sidious. +Since Sidious uses "dark side haze" against Mace it'd make sense he'd use something similar against Yoda.
IOW, Vader > Palpatine > Yoda in sabers. I know that a lot of people don't like the notion that Vader ultimately became a better swordsman than Palpatine/Yoda, but canon is canon... Moreover, the fact that canon Vader never lost any power/potential after the events of RotS(to the contrary, he became more powerful than ever) should help consolidate his ability to reach that level. /shrugSo all that's really left to decide here is who has the superior Force power in a combat scenario.
As for Matt Martin: he has flat-out stated that random writer comments are non-canon in and of themselves. Ultimately, published material and official storytelling are what dictate the canon facts:
https://i.imgur.com/2N8lfor.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jeFfjrT.jpgAnd everything mentioned so far on Vader's behalf comes from official storytelling.
It's not about liking. It's about debating what's portrayed in the canon. Lightsaber "skill" has never always been a 1 to 1 on who wins actual lightsaber combat so lists like that are not the word of god when it comes to who will win in these threads, shit its not even word of god on canon confrontations.
Case in point the same list has Ventress above Savage when literally in the Clone Wars Ventress is clearly shown to be outmatched by him.
Originally posted by ScizardThe script I believe but logically howvekse woyld sidious lose his light saber.
Evidence for Yoda disarming Sidious? Don't believe that's in any canon sources.And, that's for the story regardless. Either way Vader pushes Luke back until he's amped.
And having familarity is what allows the duel to last so long, the losing part is just Anakin being a retarded, not that I care for even discussing this battle, it's two decades past and completely irrelevent.
Everything is for the story but your bias cannot dismiss it when it suits you. Anakin was arrogant in his power and ability. So you are saying despite Vader knowing anger makes you powerful he deliberately spurred an opponent who did not want to even fight him. So he is dumb still. All of it is canon but the excuses for losses needs to stop.
Originally posted by ForschbewithuThis has always been the case but Star Wars fans holding to this my giy always wins because of is silly. Each situation is different, each duelist has different strengths and weaknesses so Kenobi will do better against Vader than Dooku despite Dooku having Kenobi number. It is the fans who choose which statements to take literally and be prisoners of the last moment we see ergo Maul vs. Tano. Maul still disarmed her but failedvto close the deal which proves his skill is still on par but her resiliency coupled with the situation ended up going in her favor but is not indicative of another matchup.
I never said the list is "Jedi A will beat Jedi b every single time." Matt Martin has said so from your quote, and even Nic Gillard said so before him.We are in agreement so many factors go into a fight and rarely does the more powerful/skill combatant ever actually win the fight.
