Yoda vs. Vader [canon]

Originally posted by Galan007
Tbf...

Vader is canonically listed above Sheev in sabers. I know a lot of people hate that, but it is what it is.

And even more people like it... Vader done as he should always have been.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Agreed actually. I have Sidious below Yoda in sabers, but I think Vader might still win. It’s pretty telling that Yoda and Kenobi never attempted to kill Vader again, and there are quotes that say Vader was second in power only to Sidious.

And also Sidious said canon that Vader powers as being unparalled. In any case, Vader brutalizes Yoda.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The script I believe but logically howvekse woyld sidious lose his light saber.

Everything is for the story but your bias cannot dismiss it when it suits you. Anakin was arrogant in his power and ability. So you are saying despite Vader knowing anger makes you powerful he deliberately spurred an opponent who did not want to even fight him. So he is dumb still. All of it is canon but the excuses for losses needs to stop.

Which isn't canon. GoA clearly shows Sidious still has his saber.

And you're just ignoring the circumstances to suit your needs. This is a battle with no crazy circumstances like Luke getting a massive amp. This isn't about the character's intelligence and Vader isn't going to try and get Yoda to use the dark side anyway, completely different.

Originally posted by Scizard
Which isn't canon. GoA clearly shows Sidious still has his saber.

And you're just ignoring the circumstances to suit your needs. This is a battle with no crazy circumstances like Luke getting a massive amp. This isn't about the character's intelligence and Vader isn't going to try and get Yoda to use the dark side anyway, completely different.

So you believe sidious just tossed it aside off screen? What makes sense to you?

Luke getting angry is better than Vader. That is what happened. You can scream all you want but Luke won and Palpatine sought him as he was younger and more powerful. Vader was well past a prime he never realized due to Kenobi.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So the script of the movie...haha

So you believe sidious just tossed it aside off screen? What makes sense to you?

Luke getting angry is better than Vader. That is what happened. You can scream all you want but Luke won and Palpatine sought him as he was younger and more powerful. Vader was well past a prime he never realized due to Kenobi.

If we're talking in universe? Probably just hid it under his robes. If we're talking out of universe then it's probably just due to the fact that he was originally intended to be disarmed, which is no longer the case, so a retcon.

And? Amped Luke beating Vader shows Luke's power, not Vader's weakness, since we already know he lost no potential and only got stronger, his ability rivalling Sidious.

Originally posted by Scizard
If we're talking in universe? Probably just hid it under his robes. If we're talking out of universe then it's probably just due to the fact that he was originally intended to be disarmed, which is no longer the case, so a retcon.

And? Amped Luke beating Vader shows Luke's power, not Vader's weakness, since we already know he lost no potential and only got stronger, his ability rivalling Sidious.

He clearly lost potential. Full potential Anakin rivals the Ones who are per canon>>>>>>>the Jedi and the Sith. No way is ROTJ Luke rivaling that.

Canon has stated that Vader didn’t lose any of his potential. He didn’t reach that potential though.

Even in legends, Sidious believes that Vader’s limitations were mental and not physical.

.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Why on earth would it not take into account the most popular/common incarnation of that individual? In the OT and the Sequel Trilogy, Palpatine doesn't even wield a lightsaber so it'd be strange to put him at the top. Assuming its ROTS Sidious is like assuming when referencing Vader its ROTS Vader or Comic Book Vader.

Maul appears to use the same ability on Ahsoka and it clearly doesn't lower skill levels to Padawan levels. +The databank still says he kills them before they can react.

No, it really doesn't. Lightsaber duel is commonly used to talk about the entire confrontation in canon. It literally is even in reference to his skill in the Dark Side of the Force. And the final screenplays have Yoda disarming Sidious. +Since Sidious uses "dark side haze" against Mace it'd make sense he'd use something similar against Yoda.

It's not about liking. It's about debating what's portrayed in the canon. Lightsaber "skill" has never always been a 1 to 1 on who wins actual lightsaber combat so lists like that are not the word of god when it comes to who will win in these threads, shit its not even word of god on canon confrontations.

Case in point the same list has Ventress above Savage when literally in the Clone Wars Ventress is clearly shown to be outmatched by him.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
You said it yourself, Sidious doesn’t even use a lightsaber after episode 3 so why on earth would he even be on the list in the first place 😂 You might not like it but Vader is now the top dog in terms of dueling, in the new canon.

Why is Ventress above Savage after she was bodied by him? I have no idea what went into the list. All I know is that it isn't the end all be all in versus matches.

Canon has stated that Vader didn’t lose any of his potential. He didn’t reach that potential though.

Whether it's physical or mental is irrelevant. Even when he died well into his middle age he still had not reached his full potential. That suggests there were serious limitations he simply could not overcome. Unless you want to start arguing Darth Vader>Son & Daughter.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Why is Ventress above Savage after she was bodied by him? I have no idea what went into the list. All I know is that it isn't the end all be all in versus matches.

It could have been a bad match-up for her. You are correct that it isn't the "end all be all in versus matches". It merely means she is a better duelist not that she would necessarily win a duel. Regardless, she was only using a single lightsaber so it's a poor example.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Why is Ventress above Savage after she was bodied by him? I have no idea what went into the list. All I know is that it isn't the end all be all in versus matches.

Whether it's physical or mental is irrelevant. Even when he died well into his middle age he still had not reached his full potential. That suggests there were serious limitations he simply could not overcome. Unless you want to start arguing Darth Vader>Son & Daughter.

That’s legends though, and we’re talking about canon Vader who we know for a fact didn’t lose any of his potential based on multiple quotes and statements. Obviously he didn’t reach that full potential, or else like u said he’d be a god but he definitely became more powerful.

Originally posted by ares834
It could have been a bad match-up for her. You are correct that it isn't the "end all be all in versus matches". It merely means she is a better duelist not that she would necessarily win a duel. Regardless, she was only using a single lightsaber so it's a poor example.

After Obi-Wan gets his lightsaber back and she is back at two sabers she agrees they are both overmatched. So, no its actually a great example.

You’re right, it’s not the end all be all but it plays a large factor for sure and definitely indicates who would win in most cases.

That’s legends though, and we’re talking about canon Vader who we know for a fact didn’t lose any of his potential based on multiple quotes and statements. Obviously he didn’t reach that full potential, or else like u said he’d be a god but he definitely became more powerful.

No, it really doesn't. If the most skilled boxer in the world is a woman she's going to get demolished 10/10 by a heavyweight man boxer. Skill is just one of many factors that play into a duel in Star Wars.

I have no real interest in continuing the Vader debate further. It's clear he didn't reach his full potential by the age of 45 when he died everything else is a technicality that I don't care about.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Why on earth would it not take into account the most popular/common incarnation of that individual? In the OT and the Sequel Trilogy, Palpatine doesn't even wield a lightsaber so it'd be strange to put him at the top. Assuming its ROTS Sidious is like assuming when referencing Vader its ROTS Vader or Comic Book Vader.

I can't think of a logical reason why the list would be referencing anything but those instances when his placement was considered..? Especially when his saber skill was never touched on again in canon.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No, it really doesn't. Lightsaber duel is commonly used to talk about the entire confrontation in canon. It literally is even in reference to his skill in the Dark Side of the Force.

Vader is placed above Palpatine as a "red lightsaber wielder", and Palpatine is placed above Yoda in a "lightsaber duel"... And saber skill is what Palpatine was using against Yoda until the end of their battle(when he began using the Force offensively.)

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And the final screenplays have Yoda disarming Sidious.

And by the time he started throwing pods around in the original script, Palpatine had already been disarmed... So yeah, retconned.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
+Since Sidious uses "dark side haze" against Mace it'd make sense he'd use something similar against Yoda.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
It's not about liking. It's about debating what's portrayed in the canon. Lightsaber "skill" has never always been a 1 to 1 on who wins actual lightsaber combat so lists like that are not the word of god when it comes to who will win in these threads, shit its not even word of god on canon confrontations.

Does that mean Vader would beat them in 'all-out' combat? Not necessarily(especially in Palpatine's case.) It just means he was a better swordsman.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He clearly lost potential.

Vader never becoming a peer of The Father doesn't mean he lost potential. It just means he never fully realized said potential. That certainly isn't a low showing, though(not even RoS Palpatine, with the power of every Sith in history, reached that level.)

Originally posted by Lord Stark
After Obi-Wan gets his lightsaber back and she is back at two sabers she agrees they are both overmatched. So, no its actually a great example.

Wrong. She still has a single saber at the time. In fact, she never recovers her second saber at all.

@Galan007: I know that in canon force user don't became weaker after losing limbs per Chee, but do we have anything to confirm that they don't lose potential? Or is more of a case that we just don't have anything to confirm that they lose potential.

Also, acording to Filoni in the original version of the episide Maul was going to give Vader a decent fight, perhaps similar to what Ahsoka did. And there is also that starwars.com quote that implies that Maul>Ahsoka. I think that Rebels might be Maul's prime, at least as of season 2 and he declined only in season 3.

Originally posted by Scizard
If we're talking in universe? Probably just hid it under his robes. If we're talking out of universe then it's probably just due to the fact that he was originally intended to be disarmed, which is no longer the case, so a retcon.

And? Amped Luke beating Vader shows Luke's power, not Vader's weakness, since we already know he lost no potential and only got stronger, his ability rivalling Sidious.

Getting angry is not amped it is just channeling your anger by your emotions. An amp something outside of your own power is the dyad since it healed and amplified Palpatines own abilities.

Luke the same guy who is scared of Rey and Rens power so he is a good judge of what power is since he has felt Vader and Palpatines.

Originally posted by Darthadi
Also, acording to Filoni in the original version of the episide Maul was going to give Vader a decent fight, perhaps similar to what Ahsoka did. And there is also that starwars.com quote that implies that Maul>Ahsoka. I think that Rebels might be Maul's prime, at least as of season 2 and he declined only in season 3.

Originally posted by Darthadi
@Galan007: I know that in canon force user don't became weaker after losing limbs per Chee, but do we have anything to confirm that they don't lose potential? Or is more of a case that we just don't have anything to confirm that they lose potential.

Aside from that, Lords of the Sith literally goes out of its way to tell us that post-RotS Vader was more powerful than ever... And by the time of Rebels, he was arguably even more powerful, given Hidalgo's "prime" quote.

Chee's comment just cements the info we already have, imo.