Then there has to be psychological reasons for Vader's growth slowing down. As Anakin he was going to surpass Sheev very soon, even factoring Sheev's growth after ROTS. Anakin's potential completly dwarfed Palpatine's own so Sheev hoarding knowledge should not be a big factor especially if you consider that as Anakin he didn't had that much knowledge either. There is also Palpatine wanting to replace Vader with Luke(whose potential is lesser than Anakin's). Or maybe Vader surpassed Palpatine if you take the Fallen Order quote seriously 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007
[B]We've seen Palpatine actively dueling with a lightsaber 4 times in canon:
-TCW S05E16
-Son of Dathomir #4
-RotS
-Lords of the SithI can't think of a logical reason why the list would be referencing anything but those instances when his placement was considered..? Especially when his saber skill was never touched on again in canon.
Just because skills are rusty doesn't mean they don't exist.
Vader is placed above Palpatine as a "red lightsaber wielder", and Palpatine is placed above Yoda in a "lightsaber duel"... And saber skill is what Palpatine was using against Yoda until the end of their battle(when he began using the Force offensively.)
Not really. All of the lightsaber combat and skill doesn't revolve around saber-saber combat. Not to mention A>B>C Logic doesn't work in Star Wars, which is what you don't seem to understand. This isn't Dragon Ball Z where Vader has a power level of 1,000,000 and Sidious and Yoda have 900,000.
The unseen moments of the original RotS script(wherein Yoda was said to have disarmed Palpatine) no longer hold up in canon, I'm afraid. Aside from the GoA clip I already posted, in a different clip Palpatine was still shown with his saber in hand just as he is about to begin hurling Senate pods at Yoda:And by the time he started throwing pods around in the original script, Palpatine had already been disarmed... So yeah, retconned.
Unless that was stated in an official source, I'm not just going to assume it happened.
The movies and the animated series are still "the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters, and events to which all other tales must align." GoA videos aren't canon, at best they are like Lego Star Wars and are "canon adjacent". They also depict Yoda running up walls in duels against Dooku in AOTCs which clearly contradicts the movies.
Again, I'm just talking about pure lightsaber skill -- and in that regard, Vader > Palpatine > Yoda in canon.
Not interested in continuing that debate. Yoda demolishes unless you completely remove his ability to use the force. That's my stance.
He didn't. In canon, grievous injuries(like those suffered by Maul and Vader) do not decrease potential.Vader never becoming a peer of The Father doesn't mean he lost potential. It just means he never fully realized said potential. That certainly isn't a low showing, though(not even RoS Palpatine, with the power of every Sith in history, reached that level.)
Something prevented him from reaching that considering he was 45 when he died. Don't care what that is as long as you agree Vader isn't at the level of the Ones, and that that was his full potential.
Some of you are forgetting that the original intention was to have Vader to be much weaker. The intention has changed. Yes there are going to be minor plot holes or inconsistencies, (just look at the Siege of Mandalore TV Show vs the book). Figure it out.
Vader is supposed to be more powerful than ever right now, with sources citing him as even above Palpatine whos power would've also been growing over the two decades. We also have no idea how close Anakin was to Palpatine, so he could've indeed grown substancially even if Palpatine was to stay stagnent, which he most likely did not.
Also of course Palpatine would want Luke, why would he want a body that is burnt to the crisp, in constant pain and in a heavy suit.
I don't nessecarily think exact potential is being closely looked into either considering Luke/Ahsoka/Rey/Kylo's power. Luke's progression with what we now know in canon is way faster than Anakin's. Ahsoka is beating Maul at 17..
Although I have seen theories that Vader slowed down due to his vision, he see's himself with ultimate power and still doesn't get Padme back. Perhaps he has less desire to get stronger until he finds out Luke is alive? Either way all nothing really saying Vader lost any potential.
Originally posted by Lord StarkSo a "best of the best" list is ranking characters who are out of their prime, iyo?
Just because skills are rusty doesn't mean they don't exist.
That's... Logical?
Originally posted by Lord StarkI think you just aren't comprehending my point.
Not really. All of the lightsaber combat and skill doesn't revolve around saber-saber combat. Not to mention A>B>C Logic doesn't work in Star Wars, which is what you don't seem to understand. This isn't Dragon Ball Z where Vader has a power level of 1,000,000 and Sidious and Yoda have 900,000.
I am simply using canonical material to draw a conclusion where saber skill is concerned.
Originally posted by Lord StarkThat scene/screencap doesn't contradict the RotS film at all, though(the film certainly never showed Yoda disarming Palpatine.)
The movies and the animated series are still "the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters, and events to which all other tales must align." GoA videos aren't canon, at best they are like Lego Star Wars and are "canon adjacent". They also depict Yoda running up walls in duels against Dooku in AOTCs which clearly contradicts the movies.
It simply provides us with a canonical segment from their battle during one of the cut-scenes in the film, and effectively retcons the original script for reasons I mentioned before. In canon, Yoda did not disarm Palpatine, and Palpatine is explicitly stated to be able to defeat Yoda in a lightsaber duel.
Originally posted by Lord StarkThat's fine.
Not interested in continuing that debate. Yoda demolishes unless you completely remove his ability to use the force. That's my stance.
But I have yet to see anyone make a cohesive argument as to *why* canon Yoda would beat peak Vader... Let alone "demolish" him. /shrug
Originally posted by Lord StarkReally don't see why Vader never ascending to Father-level matters here... At all? 😕
Something prevented him from reaching that considering he was 45 when he died. Don't care what that is as long as you agree Vader isn't at the level of the Ones, and that that was his full potential.
Even though his potential was never fully realized, the fact is that canon Vader still became more powerful after the events of RotS. His potential was never diminished, and his injuries/armor never gimped his power.
Though I imagine that if you put Vader back on Mortis(a universal Force nexus), he'd become god-level. But that's neither here nor there...
Have anyone proved there that Vader > Palpatine? I guess not. But I can see one scenario, when he was indeed stronger. As he lost to his superior on Mustafar, he was rosted too much, and wasny able to challnage anyone who is not 10 tiers below him, as he had no balls anymore. Once he challanged Ben, he was unable to overpower him and needed a free frag from his former master. After a few years, was inferior to his barely-trained son. I don't care about Shitsney shitty hype, Vader's showings are inferior to either Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Sidious, Rey, Snoke, Zombietine etc. He would stomp clows of ren though. All ot once, including Kylo.