Superman vs. Mangog

Originally posted by carver9
You asked me if he knew about a characters strength and I give it to you and you wanna call PIS. 🤣🤣🤣

That's some backwards sh**.

Ok. So you're saying he knows about a character's power level, but still wanted to measure it, and then got oneshotted by someone who was vastly slower than him, despite being in forum fight type scenarios (no talking down, no attempts at peacemaking, literal 'I need to win for the sake of the universe ' type deals)?

And this isn't PIS? You want to argue CIS, I know, but you are saying Superman is the literal dumbest mutha on earth, lol.

Yes... Superman himself even admits that he intentionally gets beat up on purpose to measure his opponent power. I don't see why he wouldn't do it against Hulk. He literally said this on panel...

Originally posted by carver9
Yes... Superman himself even admits that he intentionally gets beat up on purpose to measure his opponent power. I don't see why he wouldn't do it against Hulk. He literally said this on panel...

He was fighting someone he knows the power level of here? Really? Who was it then?

He knew his strength in the first punch and he still took a beating. Like I said, he gauge a person power level. He would try it with the Hulk and get his chin cracked.

Originally posted by carver9
He knew his strength in the first punch and he still took a beating. Like I said, he gauge a person power level. He would try it with the Hulk and get his chin cracked.

So again, was it the same scenario as in a forum fight (with basic knowledge on, full capacity)? Did Superman know who he was fighting, like he would in a forum fight where he knows about Hulk? Yes/No? Or was it a nameless alien intelligence?

Let me know.

Originally posted by carver9
He knew his strength in the first punch and he still took a beating. Like I said, he gauge a person power level. He would try it with the Hulk and get his chin cracked.

And that is also because he didn't have basic knowledge about his opponent at that point

He definitely does that in comics, but in a vs battle where he isn’t bound to a plot, he isn’t going to do that. Just like Flash finds his way through a story and doesn’t go all out until he needs to when he could end the comic in one page.

He’s not going to just absorb shots when he could move or vibrate through them.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Not really, Superman didn't let himself get beaten even when he was measuring that opponent's powers. As your scan stated
And after he was satisfied, he immediately defeated that opponent
https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/scientistson2.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/scientistson3.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/scientistson4.jpg

And that is also because he didn't have basic knowledge about his opponent at that point

It's funny because I was going to use those scans to show how Superman isn't:

Originally posted by carver9
So yes, he's dumb as hell.

Same fight, same panels. Carver uses it to show how dumb Superman is, I use it to show how smart he is.

Edit

Originally posted by carver9
Yes... Superman himself even admits that he intentionally gets beat up on purpose to measure his opponent power. I don't see why he wouldn't do it against Hulk. He literally said this on panel...

You're overlooking all the instances where Superman actively avoided being hit altogether.

Is it really in Superman's character to intentionally let himself be struck by an attack he perceives in slow motion - especially to the extent that it risks him losing or believing he might lose the fight?

In a forum fight, it's reasonable to argue that Superman could observe a punch in slow motion and allow it to make contact in order to gauge its power. However, if he realizes mid-contact that the punch carries enough force to knock him out, he would instinctively roll with the impact, mitigating the damage and avoiding a KO.

Thanks for reinforcing my point with that scan. When a character deliberately allows themselves to be hit, the story typically makes this intention clear to the audience. That scan, however, doesn't establish or prove that every instance of Superman being tagged by an unknown opponent was a purposeful decision to assess their strength.

You can’t get around the speed issue. Superman eventually knocks Mangog out because of this with minor injury to his knuckles. Mangog is tough on the outside. On the other hand Mangog is 100% magical, being a gestalt or fusion of billions on alien creatures. There is a chance that Mangog may have immunity to Superman . In that case he’d could be in trouble. During Thunder and Lightning, Superman had to team up with Shazam, because he could not damage magical beings. I’m not saying that this would be a repeat of that, I’m saying that it’s something that shouldn’t be quickly overlooked. He’d lose if it were the case.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman isn't as unhittable as you're trying to make him out to be. Now if we debate primarily powerset, yes, I would probably agree with you.

This should be framed as the post where Carver admitted he was broken 😂

Originally posted by Stoic
You can’t get around the speed issue. Superman eventually knocks Mangog out because of this with minor injury to his knuckles. Mangog is tough on the outside. On the other hand Mangog is 100% magical, being a gestalt or fusion of billions on alien creatures. There is a chance that Mangog may have immunity to Superman . In that case he’d could be in trouble. During Thunder and Lightning, Superman had to team up with Shazam, because he could not damage magical beings. I’m not saying that this would be a repeat of that, I’m saying that it’s something that shouldn’t be quickly overlooked. He’d lose if it were the case.

Originally posted by ODG
Mangog's magic can be an issue deserving of wholly separate consideration. But one step at a time. If nobody could get around the speed issue, Superman would never have lost a fight. He has. If you do think Superman beats Mangog with minor injuries to his knuckles, then refer to scenes of Mangog being beaten by a Superman-level opponent in such a way or, conversely, scenes where Superman beating a Mangog-level opponent in such a way.

He's not implying that no one can overcome the speed issue (there are at least a few characters who are as fast or faster than Superman in combat). He's stating that Mangog won't be able to, especially in the context of a forum fight with Full Capacity.

Originally posted by ODG
Mangog's magic can be an issue deserving of wholly separate consideration. But one step at a time. If nobody could get around the speed issue, Superman would never have lost a fight. He has. If you do think Superman beats Mangog with minor injuries to his knuckles, then refer to scenes of Mangog being beaten by a Superman-level opponent in such a way or, conversely, scenes where Superman beating a Mangog-level opponent in such a way.

Originally posted by ODG
Mangog's magic can be an issue deserving of wholly separate consideration. But one step at a time. If nobody could get around the speed issue, Superman would never have lost a fight. He has. If you do think Superman beats Mangog with minor injuries to his knuckles, then refer to scenes of Mangog being beaten by a Superman-level opponent in such a way or, conversely, scenes where Superman beating a Mangog-level opponent in such a way.

Scripted comic battles aren’t the same as a forum battle though. Superman never has to let up. He can directly bypass most of his opponents durability unless they were magically sealed. Remember , Superman can phase due to his speed. Would he need to use lethal force against Mangog? Imagine him using his speed without the dialog. Can Mangog even see him? He had a drawn out conversation with Zod in the space of a second if I’m remembering correctly. That’s insane.

Originally posted by h1a8
He's not implying that no one can overcome the speed issue (there are at least a few characters who are as fast or faster than Superman in combat). He's stating that Mangog won't be able to, especially in the context of a forum fight with Full Capacity.

I mean, forget that Mangog's sheer power approaches (if not matches) that of a skyfather's and that he is literally magic and can cast magical spells because that offends your sensibilities. Give us the comics that support your position on this mythical "speed" issue first.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What's a Mangog level character in DC who Superman needs to beat?

"Superman beats Mangog with minor injuries to his knuckles."

"Please refer to scenes of Mangog being beaten by a Superman-level opponent in such a way or, conversely, scenes where Superman beating a Mangog-level opponent in such a way."

Yes? No? Deflect because butthurt? Or maybe just STFU?

Originally posted by ODG
There are plenty of DC superbricks that have "overcome the speed issue" when fighting Superman. How is that you (or others) are so confident that Mangog cannot? Is it based on comics or butthurt?

I mean, forget that Mangog's sheer power approaches (if not matches) that of a skyfather's and that he is literally magic and can cast magical spells because that offends your sensibilities. Give us the comics that support your position on this mythical "speed" issue first. It's like you tried to make a clever statement but failed. Either track the conversation being had or don't:

"Superman beats Mangog with minor injuries to his knuckles."

"Please refer to scenes of Mangog being beaten by a Superman-level opponent in such a way or, conversely, scenes where Superman beating a Mangog-level opponent in such a way."

Yes? No? Deflect because butthurt? Or maybe just STFU?

Originally posted by ODG
There are plenty of DC superbricks that have "overcome the speed issue" when fighting Superman. How is that you (or others) are so confident that Mangog cannot? Is it based on comics or butthurt?

I mean, forget that Mangog's sheer power approaches (if not matches) that of a skyfather's and that he is literally magic and can cast magical spells because that offends your sensibilities. Give us the comics that support your position on this mythical "speed" issue first. It's like you tried to make a clever statement but failed. Either track the conversation being had or don't:

"Superman beats Mangog with minor injuries to his knuckles."

"Please refer to scenes of Mangog being beaten by a Superman-level opponent in such a way or, conversely, scenes where Superman beating a Mangog-level opponent in such a way."

Yes? No? Deflect because butthurt? Or maybe just STFU?

The argument is more about forum rules.

In comics, anything can happen - like Silver Surfer being armbarred by Black Panther or Spider-Man defeating Firelord through blatant PIS. If you're arguing what could happen in a comic under the suspension of disbelief, I would agree with you. However, forum rules dictate that events don't play out as they do in comics. Full Capacity prevents a character's perception speed from inconsistently existing in a forum fight.

For example, if Superman can perceive a bullet as almost frozen in time, he won't suddenly perceive it as moving faster than he can follow during a forum battle.

Additionally, Superman choosing to get tagged in a comic is not the same as a combatant overcoming his speed (this is purely semantics, but it's worth addressing in case you were considering that angle).

For a meaningful debate, all participants must agree on the rules; otherwise, the discussion becomes pointless.

Do you believe that power levels, such as perception speed, should fluctuate randomly in a forum fight as they do in comics?

ODG you’ve forced the point and with good reason. If Mangog were composed of one billion, billion beings at the low end where each being can lift 150 pounds, Mangog himself would be able to lift 50 quadrillion tons, and at the high end 50 quintillion tons if each being were Spider-Man level. However this would fall very short of what would be needed to one shot a planet like Earth. In order to one shot the planet he would need to be able to lift 3.96 sextillion tons and each one of the beings that make up his billion billion would need to be able to strike with 3,960 tons of force.

I’m willing to believe this about Mangog for the simple fact that he was capable of driving back Odin who in canon is stated to be able to destroy galaxies as a result of his battles.

The problem is that we have never seen Mangog perform at that level due to the need to write a great story. His strength further increases through hatred or similar negative emotions as well, so there’s that.

I’d be willing to concede if Mangog were tough enough to resist Superman level strikes, which is a tall order. The only character in Marvel that can theoretically surpass Superman level strength is the Hulk, but that’s his potential strength.

In a battle against Doomsday, Mangog would become far more powerful, while Superman an is more calculating and less or t up aggression. This ultimately depends on how strong those billion billion beings are and is he fast enough to make a spell before Superman hits him a billion billion times.