Originally posted by ArtolYeah, I just think that with the safety net of healthcare, you'll have less people falling into poverty and people will have more money generally to spend on other things.
Totally agree on universal healthcare. It's just a better, more humane, more economically responsible system.I'm not sure about slow and steady progress, I think too fast is a problem, especially when it comes with social upheaval. But I think the reality we are in is that we've made socially relatively slow progress, and economically we've had massively fast change into a very bad direction (what is generally grouped under the term neo-liberal, whether that's the austerity in Europe, the bank bail outs and dismantling of any social nets in the US, or the much more disadvantageous "free trade deals" pushed on poorer nations. I think we need to move fast to go back to a more sane time economically, and then start making progress from there.
I agree that identity politics is a problematic area for the Democrats. And I think by many liberals it is used to disregard the, imo, much more important intersection of economic inequality. At the same time I do think we need to a) preserve the gains that were made for LGBT people, for women, for black people, generally for any groups that have been structurally marginalized and excluded from equal chances in society and b) continue the fight to achieve acceptance and equality where this is still not done. I do agree with Luc Boltanski, that basically the great defeat of the left in the 60s and 70s was giving some concessions on social aspects, while completely demolishing the economic critique.
I understand the borders issue is a hot button one for many, also for traditionally left leaning voters. I do think we need to achieve a balance between protecting the stability of our countries and helping those humans in desperate need. One of the best aspects to help them is to ensure that they have opportunities and worthwhile lives where they are from (both through structural investment in places like South America, Africa or the Middle East, and by NOT destabilizing these regions as both the US and Europe have sadly done throughout the last 100 years. I have to admit I see a large part in the blame for the refugee crises in our political actions in the West). But once people are coming I also think it is unconscionable to let them drown in the Mediterranean, or to not hear they asylum plea. Asylum generally I believe is one of the fundamental values of Western civilization that I think is deeply important for our cultural character, and I find the rejection of it by some (for example what the US is currently doing) deeply inhumane.
I do agree with your critique of ideological wrappings. I generally think we should be more kind to our fellow human beings regardless of differences in political stance. Nowadays everything is life and death and if you are not with me, you are my mortal enemy.
I see the neoliberal scourge as a kind of excessively quick political movement as much as anything. It's also highly globalist, which I dislike, especially as it regularly borders on imperialism. I'm with you on moving quickly back to something sensible, but it's only going to get harder from here as neoliberalism coincided with the technology boom, so the increasing pressures of a technologically advancing world are so wrapped up in the world economy that has been forced on most of us. I'm not sure what really to do about it.
There are plenty of legitimate points surrounding identity politics and intersectionality and the like, but it's just so caught up in tribalism right now that I don't see much good progress. E.g. I don't like where the trans stuff is going as I think it truly represents cultural postmodern Marxism in an authoritarian mode, but I do want to continue the integration and acceptance of trans people into society for obvious reasons; I'm often aligned with the vague goals of social justice, I just think it's being done in the wrong way, so have to take a conservative stance against it. And, yeah, as you say, it's heavily used to distract from economic inequality, which I see as the most important intersectional divide. People would rather take down 'offensive' episodes of TV and argue about that than do something real. I think a lot of it is engineered controversy.
My general stance on immigration and borders is fairly clear cut (I think): I'm an anti-interventionist and in favour of strong borders with limited immigration. I don't think we should be creating refugee crises just to then not helping the refugees. But I also think allowing refugees in in vast numbers contributes to destablising societies, such as in Germany and Sweden. I'm basically just very unhappy with every decision made by much of Europe in that regard. We need to stop forcing people to flee their countries. I'm generally in favour of legitimate asylum, for oppressed groups — for example, if ME countries want to kill their gay people, then we should take them in and show the world how people deserve to be treated. But I don't think we should just take in anyone whose life is hard in another country, because then you're just importing masses of people largely from very oppressive societies, and these people tend to bring their oppressive cultural views with them.
There's a tendency here (that I think is reflective of society) to peg people as members of specific ideologies in a very black-and-white way based on specific political stances. Apparently being critical of Islam and not agreeing with PC culture is enough for someone to be considered 'alt-lite' now. It frustrates me as someone who has stances from all across the spectrum, as it limits true discussion.
Apologies if some of this isn't fully coherent, I wrote it kind of out of order mhmm
Originally posted by Scribble
Yeah, I just think that with the safety net of healthcare, you'll have less people falling into poverty and people will have more money generally to spend on other things.I see the neoliberal scourge as a kind of excessively quick political movement as much as anything. It's also highly globalist, which I dislike, especially as it regularly borders on imperialism. I'm with you on moving quickly back to something sensible, but it's only going to get harder from here as neoliberalism coincided with the technology boom, so the increasing pressures of a technologically advancing world are so wrapped up in the world economy that has been forced on most of us. I'm not sure what really to do about it.
There are plenty of legitimate points surrounding identity politics and intersectionality and the like, but it's just so caught up in tribalism right now that I don't see much good progress. E.g. I don't like where the trans stuff is going as I think it truly represents cultural postmodern Marxism in an authoritarian mode, but I do want to continue the integration and acceptance of trans people into society for obvious reasons; I'm often aligned with the vague goals of social justice, I just think it's being done in the wrong way, so have to take a conservative stance against it. And, yeah, as you say, it's heavily used to distract from economic inequality, which I see as the most important intersectional divide. People would rather take down 'offensive' episodes of TV and argue about that than do something real. I think a lot of it is engineered controversy.
My general stance on immigration and borders is fairly clear cut (I think): I'm an anti-interventionist and in favour of strong borders with limited immigration. I don't think we should be creating refugee crises just to then not helping the refugees. But I also think allowing refugees in in vast numbers contributes to destablising societies, such as in Germany and Sweden. I'm basically just very unhappy with every decision made by much of Europe in that regard. We need to stop forcing people to flee their countries. I'm generally in favour of legitimate asylum, for oppressed groups — for example, if ME countries want to kill their gay people, then we should take them in and show the world how people deserve to be treated. But I don't think we should just take in anyone whose life is hard in another country, because then you're just importing masses of people largely from very oppressive societies, and these people tend to bring their oppressive cultural views with them.
There's a tendency here (that I think is reflective of society) to peg people as members of specific ideologies in a very black-and-white way based on specific political stances. Apparently being critical of Islam and not agreeing with PC culture is enough for someone to be considered 'alt-lite' now. It frustrates me as someone who has stances from all across the spectrum, as it limits true discussion.
Apologies if some of this isn't fully coherent, I wrote it kind of out of order mhmm
I think the way to return from the neo-liberal nightmare world we are in, and I don't think you'll like this, is getting people like Sanders or Corbyn in to return to a more sane and social economic policy. Biden and Starmer, should they win, will just be a continuation of the politics that have caused so much suffering to people, imo.
It's interesting in regards to identity politics, I sort of take the opposite approach to you. There's many thinks I disagree with but in the end I do have to take the progressive stance, because the conservative one is just too inhumane and comes with the immense danger of undoing even the gains that have been made. Ideally I'd like a more calm and rational approach to it, but sadly the world we live in is hyper partisan. As for the Trans topic, I think we discussed it before, I see it completely differently, and believe that what falls under the term trans rights are incredibly important to fight for.
Yeah, I see what you mean, I don't think that Germany and Sweden are actually the kind of problem countries that get talked about in mostly right win media, at least not according to friends I know from there places. But of course the potential is there, at some point a country can not take a certain number, I don't believe Europe came close to that number ever, except in the one metric of right wing backlash (i.e. Marine LePen, the Northern League, the AfD, or the incorporation of the far right into the conservative party under Cameron). The question to me though is, what to do with those that do come here, and I am against closing the border to them to put them in camps just outside of the European borders, or in the camps in Greece. And I'm certainly against using lethal force against them as some have suggested. In my opinion everyone that comes needs to be processed properly processed for Asylum, if they do not qualify they should be send back, if they can't be send back because their country is deemed unsafe that is an indication that they should qualify for Asylum. And if they do stay here, we should invest in ensuring that they can be integrated for the duration that they will be in the country, so that they can work and contribute to the society they live in as well. And I think if they do have family, and have qualified for living here, they should be allowed to bring at least their close relatives.
Yeah, I'm sure people make quick judgements and put people into certain boxes. I like to look more at the impact people have with their words. For example there are some pundits that claim to be progressive, but then all they do is platform and talk positively about conservative or far right associated people. So in that manner I don't care what label people are, but what you say and do is what matters.
Think of a human being as part-angel, part-demon, wrapped up in the awareness of its own mortality. Ie, no one's perfect, so it's a matter of degree, not either/or.
Two of my favorite politicians were John McCain and Joe Biden. They were/are decent men, especially given the field they chose. Now one's been gone for a while.
Biden, unfortunately, is not a snappy-comeback kind of guy. That's okay. As has been said in prior posts, he is light-years beyond the Malevolent Cheeto. And likely he will be a transitional, 1-term president (he even implied so himself some months back), paving the way (hopefully) for the next generation (which will bring their own part-angel/part-demon dynamics with them).
Right now, the Biden Wormhole is the best way back to our normal universe.
#YBT
#retirethe'T'
Originally posted by MindshipWe need to leave Bizzaro world as a planet's population. You are bang on MS.
Think of a human being as part-angel, part-demon, wrapped up in the awareness of its own mortality. Ie, no one's perfect, so it's a matter of degree, not either/or.Two of my favorite politicians were John McCain and Joe Biden. They were/are decent men, especially given the field they chose. Now one's been gone for a while.
Biden, unfortunately, is not a snappy-comeback kind of guy. That's okay. As has been said in prior posts, he is light-years beyond the Malevolent Cheeto. And likely he will be a transitional, 1-term president (he even implied so himself some months back), paving the way (hopefully) for the next generation (which will bring their own part-angel/part-demon dynamics with them).
Right now, the Biden Wormhole is the best way back to our normal universe.
#YBT
#retiretheT
Originally posted by ArtolSee I actually have kind of a weird stance on this element of the discussion: despite that I could never in good conscience vote for Corbyn due to his antisemitism, terrorist sympathies, direct legitimate communist ties, etc., I didn't actually disagree all that much with his manifesto's economic policies. If those economic policies came in an otherwise inoffensive package, I'd have voted for Labour last election. I voted third-party knowing that my vote wouldn't matter (Keir Starmer is my local MP, he was gonna win by a landslide anyway), and didn't really have an overall preference for who actually won, as I hated both sides for different reasons. But I did kind of want Labour to win just because of how much I despise the Tories and what they've done to the country.
I think the way to return from the neo-liberal nightmare world we are in, and I don't think you'll like this, is getting people like Sanders or Corbyn in to return to a more sane and social economic policy. Biden and Starmer, should they win, will just be a continuation of the politics that have caused so much suffering to people, imo.It's interesting in regards to identity politics, I sort of take the opposite approach to you. There's many thinks I disagree with but in the end I do have to take the progressive stance, because the conservative one is just too inhumane and comes with the immense danger of undoing even the gains that have been made. Ideally I'd like a more calm and rational approach to it, but sadly the world we live in is hyper partisan. As for the Trans topic, I think we discussed it before, I see it completely differently, and believe that what falls under the term trans rights are incredibly important to fight for.
Yeah, I see what you mean, I don't think that Germany and Sweden are actually the kind of problem countries that get talked about in mostly right win media, at least not according to friends I know from there places. But of course the potential is there, at some point a country can not take a certain number, I don't believe Europe came close to that number ever, except in the one metric of right wing backlash (i.e. Marine LePen, the Northern League, the AfD, or the incorporation of the far right into the conservative party under Cameron). The question to me though is, what to do with those that do come here, and I am against closing the border to them to put them in camps just outside of the European borders, or in the camps in Greece. And I'm certainly against using lethal force against them as some have suggested. In my opinion everyone that comes needs to be processed properly processed for Asylum, if they do not qualify they should be send back, if they can't be send back because their country is deemed unsafe that is an indication that they should qualify for Asylum. And if they do stay here, we should invest in ensuring that they can be integrated for the duration that they will be in the country, so that they can work and contribute to the society they live in as well. And I think if they do have family, and have qualified for living here, they should be allowed to bring at least their close relatives.
Yeah, I'm sure people make quick judgements and put people into certain boxes. I like to look more at the impact people have with their words. For example there are some pundits that claim to be progressive, but then all they do is platform and talk positively about conservative or far right associated people. So in that manner I don't care what label people are, but what you say and do is what matters.
I can understand you taking the progressive stance — like you say things are hyper partisan right now, so you kind of have to take some stance. I'm not particularly happy having to take the conservative stance as it means sharing a platform with people who would probably dislike me for being trans (although I haven't come up against anyone like that yet, the only transphobia I've dealt with so far was from a leftist KMC member who constantly weaponised my identity both against others and against myself). Despite being trans myself, I still take the conservative stance as I think the current activism line will in the long-term harm trans people's integration and acceptance by society at large, whilst doing much damage to the young, confused people of this generation, so until that gets sorted, I'm fine with what I have right now. I'm not being executed or forced into a camp or anything, and it wasn't heading that way anyway, society was just a bit intolerant at times (and the left is just as culpable for that from my own experience). Right now, the conservative stance is the more humane and sensible, I think.
Germany and Sweden go alongside France as probably the worst-affected by mass (mostly Muslim) immigration, imo. The very hearts of their cultures have been compromised and distorted, and I don't think it's done much good for many of the migrants either (they're heavily just ghettoised). But overall I heavily agree with much of what you're saying here: one of my main issues is taking people in without any effort to integrate them, or even care about them once they're past the border. I see so many homeless refugees in London, and so many homeless natives too. Why are we taking people in if we can't even support those who were born here? But even beyond that, allowing immigrants to bring their close family without question often make ghettoisation worse, as they will tend to cluster together, essentially often creating their own ghettos. That's why my general stance is to let less people in so that slow integration is possible. I don't think Labour would do this well, nor have the Tories, but the Tories have at least started putting in a points-based system to slow it all down a bit.
Definitely agreed about people's words and actions being more important than their supposed political labels; this is why I've veered away from the left at large in recent years, as I find a lot of the people who identify with it to be self-hating, virtue-signalling clout-chasers who claim to be moral and righteous but actually are taking the left further and further down the road to authoritarianism. By contrast, the right at large has become more open and diverse, so I've found myself agreeing with many of them more often than I used to.
Originally posted by Scribble
Definitely agreed about people's words and actions being more important than their supposed political labels; this is why I've veered away from the left at large in recent years, as I find a lot of the people who identify with it to be self-hating, virtue-signalling clout-chasers who claim to be moral and righteous but actually are taking the left further and further down the road to authoritarianism. By contrast, the right at large has become more open and diverse, so I've found myself agreeing with many of them more often than I used to.
This is a very interesting take. And I agree with it whole heartedly. I am accepted by the conservatives despite my liberal/leftist positions. They are more open to the science that contradicts their positions. They have far less hate, anger, and insularity.
All around, they (conservatives and Libertarians) are just far more pleasant to be around. It is emotionally and mentally exhausting to constantly have to put up with the SJW virtue signaling, self-righteous platitudes, close-mindedness, and hypocrisy.
Summary: Auth-Lefties are the scourge of human society in the western world.
Originally posted by Scribble
They're Democratic Socialists, not Social Democrats. I dislike them both, even if policy-wise, I agree on a number of things with Sanders. Their rhetoric is distinctly socialist, not democratic, and some of their projects such as the Green New Deal are pure madness.AOC is also the one who said "There's a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right," which I think is a terrifying statement.
Yes, it is, and retarded statements like that is par for the course for her. Her side is never "morally right" anyway.
LoL. Putting people like Sanders or Corbyn in just to satiate the leftist crazies and "make things go back to normal" (see my sig below) is actually one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
People who think like that are not only dumb as f*** but spineless cowards as well. But, that's the typical lefty for you lol.
"Let's give the crazies what they want so they will spare everyone from their destruction and chaos!" 😂
Sorry, but I will not give in to these thugs and stop fighting for what I believe in (individualism, capitalism, nationalism, conservatism, and Christianity) just to "make things normal again". Not gonna happen. Putting in authoritarians like Sanders or Corbyn to "solve the problem" will only make things far worse.
If it comes down to choosing to let America or even the world burn versus giving in to the radical leftist mob then I say let it all burn.
Originally posted by Mindship
Think of a human being as part-angel, part-demon, wrapped up in the awareness of its own mortality. Ie, no one's perfect, so it's a matter of degree, not either/or.Two of my favorite politicians were John McCain and Joe Biden. They were/are decent men, especially given the field they chose. Now one's been gone for a while.
Biden, unfortunately, is not a snappy-comeback kind of guy. That's okay. As has been said in prior posts, he is light-years beyond the Malevolent Cheeto. And likely he will be a transitional, 1-term president (he even implied so himself some months back), paving the way (hopefully) for the next generation (which will bring their own part-angel/part-demon dynamics with them).
Right now, the Biden Wormhole is the best way back to our normal universe.
#YBTm
#retirethe'T'
Nah, Biden is not "light years" ahead of anyone least of all our very great president. Biden's getting senile and can barely even remember his own damn name lol.
And McCain was a globalist traitorous p-o-s. I don't care if he served his country in the military. Lots of people do that (including me, or at least I did) but that doesn't make them all war-mongering globalist anti-American pieces of shit like McCain was.