Originally posted by Scribble
I get your point, but 'Religion' is too broad to be a single ideology.
Yes. It’s also possible to believe in religion and divorce yourself from the immense violence committed in their various names. The same is true for communism, and is untrue for naziism.
As far as communism and naziism goes, naziism is worse. There’s nothing inherently violent within the communist ideology. It is true that is always becomes violent but it is theoretically possible for communism to work without any violence whatsoever. And there are plenty of peaceful people who believe in communism. Jesus Christ was essentially a communist. Naziism is inherently violent and hateful and is not possible for those aspects to be divorced from its ideology without also abandoning the ideology itself.
Originally posted by BackFire👆
Yes. It’s also possible to believe in religion and divorce yourself from the immense violence committed in their various names. The same is true for communism, and is untrue for naziism.As far as communism and naziism goes, naziism is worse. There’s nothing inherently violent within the communist ideology. It is true that is always becomes violent but it is theoretically possible for communism to work without any violence whatsoever. And there are plenty of peaceful people who believe in communism. Jesus Christ was essentially a communist. Naziism is inherently violent and hateful and is not possible for those aspects to be divorced from its ideology without also abandoning the ideology itself.
Originally posted by BackFireThe Communist Manifesto, written by Marx and Engels, specifically details using democracy to bring about a despotism to bring about communism:
Yes. It’s also possible to believe in religion and divorce yourself from the immense violence committed in their various names. The same is true for communism, and is untrue for naziism.As far as communism and naziism goes, naziism is worse. There’s nothing inherently violent within the communist ideology. It is true that is always becomes violent but it is theoretically possible for communism to work without any violence whatsoever. And there are plenty of peaceful people who believe in communism. Jesus Christ was essentially a communist. Naziism is inherently violent and hateful and is not possible for those aspects to be divorced from its ideology without also abandoning the ideology itself.
The Communist revolution is the most radical rupture with traditional property-relations; no wonder that its development involves the most radical rupture with traditional ideas.
But let us have done with the bourgeois objections to Communism.
We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class, is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class, to win the battle of democracy.
The proletariat will use its political supremacy, to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.
And from the penultimate paragraph:
The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow19 of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
Communism is inseparable from violence, mass-murder, mass theft, subjugation and tyranny. Communist flags carry this message: that those who carry the flag strive to violently destroy the society they live in. The flag is red: red with blood. How much more red could it be? The answer is none, none more red
Originally posted by BackFire
Yes. It’s also possible to believe in religion and divorce yourself from the immense violence committed in their various names. The same is true for communism, and is untrue for naziism.As far as communism and naziism goes, naziism is worse. There’s nothing inherently violent within the communist ideology. It is true that is always becomes violent but it is theoretically possible for communism to work without any violence whatsoever. And there are plenty of peaceful people who believe in communism. Jesus Christ was essentially a communist. Naziism is inherently violent and hateful and is not possible for those aspects to be divorced from its ideology without also abandoning the ideology itself.
It makes evangelicals SUPER buttmad when you tell them Jesus was a Pure Communist (not a communist, but a Pure Communist).
Originally posted by Scribble
The Communist Manifesto, written by Marx and Engels, specifically details using democracy to bring about a despotism to bring about communism:[b]The Communist revolution is the most radical rupture with traditional property-relations; no wonder that its development involves the most radical rupture with traditional ideas.
But let us have done with the bourgeois objections to Communism.
We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class, is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class, to win the battle of democracy.
The proletariat will use its political supremacy, to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.
And from the penultimate paragraph:
The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow19 of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
Communism is inseparable from violence, mass-murder, mass theft, subjugation and tyranny. Communist flags carry this message: that those who carry the flag strive to violently destroy the society they live in. The flag is red: red with blood. How much more red could it be? The answer is none, none more red [/B]
Is it possible to believe in the tenants of communism without subscribing to violence though?
To me when I read that it sounds more like the authors recognizing the fact that for something as extreme as communism to succeed there will need to be a societal revolution against those currently in power. Nothing more. Not quite the same as naziism and their quest to exterminate people of a different race/ethnicity until they cease to exist.
A difference in naziism and communism and that with communism it’s purely ideological. Communism doesn’t care about your race. If you are communist then they don’t have a problem with you. With naziism it is race based. A Jew that is a Nazi is going to be exterminated all the same.
Originally posted by Scribble
I've always wondered where the idea that Jesus was a communist came from.
Acts 2:44-45 King James Version (KJV)
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Acts 4:32-35 King James Version (KJV)
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
2 Corinthians 9:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
James 5:1-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
1 Corinthians 12:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
And the often quoted verse about the rich man who lived righteously by the letter of the law but was told to sell all his possessions and give it to the poor:
Matthew 19:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Jesus was pro-proletariat, anti-bourgeois. He was definitely anti-violence, pro-passivist, however. So he wasn't a Marxist. Best way to describe Christ's particular brand of Pure Communism is Christian Communism which in many ways stands in direct opposition to Marxism, Leninism, Nazism, etc. whose methods were much more violent to achieve the socialist state.
Originally posted by BackFire👆 Bingo!
Is it possible to believe in the tenants of communism without subscribing to violence though?To me when I read that it sounds more like the authors recognizing the fact that for something as extreme as communism to succeed there will need to be a societal revolution against those currently in power. Nothing more. Not quite the same as naziism and their quest to exterminate people of a different race/ethnicity until they cease to exist.
A difference in naziism and communism and that with communism it’s purely ideological. Communism doesn’t care about your race. If you are communist then they don’t have a problem with you. With naziism it is race based. A Jew that is a Nazi is going to be exterminated all the same.
Originally posted by BackFireCommunism is class-based: if you are of the middle or upper class, you're going to die in the revolution. As has happened literally every time it has ever come about. Where Nazism is about race, communism is about class. A rich commie is going to be put against the wall all the same (and that is exactly what happens).
Is it possible to believe in the tenants of communism without subscribing to violence though?To me when I read that it sounds more like the authors recognizing the fact that for something as extreme as communism to succeed there will need to be a societal revolution against those currently in power. Nothing more. Not quite the same as naziism and their quest to exterminate people of a different race/ethnicity until they cease to exist.
A difference in naziism and communism and that with communism it’s purely ideological. Communism doesn’t care about your race. If you are communist then they don’t have a problem with you. With naziism it is race based. A Jew that is a Nazi is going to be exterminated all the same.
Many modern white nationalists posit a 'peaceful' variation on Nazism: the idea that races should live separately. They claim to not want to kill anyone, and just want to build a peaceful world built on Nazi ideas of ethnic purity and environmental fascism, where other races are deported, not murdered; some have even posited building a 'black nation' within America and moving the black people there 'peacefully'.
Guess what? I don't buy it. Nor do I buy 'peaceful communism'. Because I've never seen any evidence of it.
Originally posted by Scribblewhite nationalism can never be peaceful.
Communism is class-based: if you are of the middle or upper class, you're going to die in the revolution. As has happened literally every time it has ever come about. Where Nazism is about race, communism is about class. A rich commie is going to be put against the wall all the same (and that is exactly what happens).Many modern white nationalists posit a 'peaceful' variation on Nazism: the idea that races should live separately. They claim to not want to kill anyone, and just want to build a peaceful world built on Nazi ideas of ethnic purity and environmental fascism, where other races are deported, not murdered; some have even posited building a 'black nation' within America and moving the black people there 'peacefully'.
Guess what? I don't buy it. Nor do I buy 'peaceful communism'. Because I've never seen any evidence of it.
Originally posted by Scribble
Communism is class-based: if you are of the middle or upper class, you're going to die in the revolution. As has happened literally every time it has ever come about. Where Nazism is about race, communism is about class. A rich commie is going to be put against the wall all the same (and that is exactly what happens).Many modern white nationalists posit a 'peaceful' variation on Nazism: the idea that races should live separately. They claim to not want to kill anyone, and just want to build a peaceful world built on Nazi ideas of ethnic purity and environmental fascism, where other races are deported, not murdered; some have even posited building a 'black nation' within America and moving the black people there 'peacefully'.
Guess what? I don't buy it. Nor do I buy 'peaceful communism'. Because I've never seen any evidence of it.
I'm with you on both political systems you discussed:
Communism and Nazism.
There's no such thing as a peaceful transition for either.
Even the Auth-Lefts who are basically instituting segregation (exactly what the Neo-Nazis and KKK have been trying to get for years...FFS, I can't even believe this shit but its real), now. They really do want silly things like "black only" or "Hispanic only" places.
Absolutely asinine.
Originally posted by dadudemonI can dig Christian Communism. Good-ass post, DDM.
Acts 2:44-45 King James Version (KJV)
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Acts 4:32-35 King James Version (KJV)
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
2 Corinthians 9:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.James 5:1-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
1 Corinthians 12:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.And the often quoted verse about the rich man who lived righteously by the letter of the law but was told to sell all his possessions and give it to the poor:
Matthew 19:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.Jesus was pro-proletariat, anti-bourgeois. He was definitely anti-violence, pro-passivist, however. So he wasn't a Marxist. Best way to describe Christ's particular brand of Pure Communism is Christian Communism which in many ways stands in direct opposition to Marxism, Leninism, Nazism, etc. whose methods were much more violent to achieve the socialist state.
Originally posted by Scribble
Communism is class-based: if you are of the middle or upper class, you're going to die in the revolution. As has happened literally every time it has ever come about. Where Nazism is about race, communism is about class. A rich commie is going to be put against the wall all the same (and that is exactly what happens).Many modern white nationalists posit a 'peaceful' variation on Nazism: the idea that races should live separately. They claim to not want to kill anyone, and just want to build a peaceful world built on Nazi ideas of ethnic purity and environmental fascism, where other races are deported, not murdered; some have even posited building a 'black nation' within America and moving the black people there 'peacefully'.
Guess what? I don't buy it. Nor do I buy 'peaceful communism'. Because I've never seen any evidence of it.
Good point. I think that communism is bad. And naziism is worse.
Originally posted by BackFireIt's apples and oranges to me, I dislike both for different reasons. Well, some are for the same reasons, but they are different beasts, but just as dangerous overall.
Good point. I think that communism is bad. And naziism is worse.
I'm still not sure what my opinions on the original topic are. I've been thinking it over. I think I fall back on my general stance of it being good to know where Nazis and communists are, so if they want to raise a shitty flag, let 'em.