Thor vs. Aquaman in the arm-wrestling competition.

Mjolnir enhancing Thor's striking power is a given, but there is clearly a significant overlap, much higher than their should be between what Mjolnir is capable of and what Thor is. Example, Thor palming Mjolnir being swung by the Destroyer:

You would assume that implies a significant strength disparity, but it doesn't. The Destroyer is stronger, and swinging a hammer.
I can post other things recently, such as Black enchanted Uru melting (Designed to withstand the death of the Universe), while Thor was channelling the mother storm:
https://i.postimg.cc/v85Jhkkt/RCO011.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/rFcvPgLX/RCO011-1583413149.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/SNrwF8yX/RCO012-1583413149.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Z55XTRRw/RCO013-1583413149.jpg

Thor is more durable than Uru? Comics are stupid. Assume Mjolnir enhances Thor's striking power.

P.S. Mjolnir grants you the power of Thor know. That's what made it so powerful and deadly. The MS retcon doesn't make much sense, but still seems to hold true post-retcon. I.e. if it was stripped of the enchantment to give you the power of Thor, it should just be a hunk of Uru. How does this make sense? Not sure.

Originally posted by h1a8
But the question then becomes what fraction of the damage can we award to Thor's strength alone? Or how many times does Mjolnir amplify Thor's striking vs doing it without a hammer?

If we look at the feat that is brought over and over again, where he cracks the moon with his Mjolnir strikes:
https://i.imgur.com/FsQdXrZ.jpg

In the very next page, using physical strength alone he puts a lot of effort into mending a small part of the moon back together:
https://i.imgur.com/oW5F8hV.jpg

Do I think that's an accurate assessment in gaps? Tbh, no. I think it's closer. But I don't see how one can possibly even try to argue there's no difference between them. Thor ever destroying a planet with punches would be his best pure physical feat ever.

The thing is, he doesn't really need that unless it's special threads like this with specific 'arm wrestling' stuff. In general, there's no need to differentiate between his physical strength and Mjolnir striking since he always uses it.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You cannot hit as hard with a punch, as you can with a hammer. Or a baseball bat.

If you want, you can ask a 10 year old to punch you in the face.

Then ask him to take a baseball bat and do the same thing.

Thor being capable of destroying a planet with Mjolnir [which as abhi has checkmated you on the previous page, is ALONE described as being capable of destroying a planet] has no bearing on his physical strength being to destroy the planet without it.

Is Thor very strong to be able to hit that hard with the hammer? Of course.
Does that mean that Thor, using his physical strength alone, can replicate what he does with the hammer? Of course not.

No matter the multitude of people trying to explain to you basic 3rd grade physics, you can't seem to grasp simple concepts such as newton's basic laws of physics.

You stay with your hand in the air.

A car is dropped from above, while you're lifted with a platform [i.e. flying].

Do you understand that in order for your arms to stay stretched and not bent inwards, you have to exert physical strength and force equal to the falling car, and the platform itself [i.e. flight] doesn't help you at all.

In fact, my physics illiterate Wratful Dwarf 2.0, do you understand that flight makes the feat even harder to do since you're not only having to meet dead-on with your outstretched arms the speed and mass of the car but also your own velocity which works against you, since it actually increases the strength you have to put in to stop the car?

In essence, Superman using flight to stop things dead-on is even MORE impressive than standing still.

Have you ever been to school, or do I really have to hold your hand through this?

Lmao

@Philo you're like 5 posts behind at this point.

I understand though it took you sometime to create the crude drawing that doesn't really mean anything lol

Look how photobucket massacred my boy.

Ok.

Have a nice time on the forum, Newjak. We'll never get along, and that's fine by me 👆

Also technically if you have the power of the flight and propel your limbs with said power of flight that's where the exertion of force would come from.

The arms not breaking would simply your durability.

I put hydraulic pressed to your arm causing them to exert for e up you could still catch the car even with the car dropping on you if I reenforced your body enough. You wouldn't have to exert any force at all. Also that's only one version of lifting things lol.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Example, Thor palming Mjolnir being swung by the Destroyer:

Her name is Jane.

I've never been so bitterly disappointed.

Originally posted by Newjak
Also technically if you have the power of the flight and propel your limbs with said power of flight that's where the exertion of force would come from.

The arms not breaking would simply your durability

Erm.

Would your elbows/wrists/shoulders not bend? If they don't, that's strength.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Her name is Jane.

I've never been so bitterly disappointed.

In terms of high-end Thors, where would you place Jane?

I'm not talking solely about 'feats' -- but general portrayal. Jason Aaron's Jane -- would she be in top 5 Thors under any writer? I know motherstorm muddies it a bit but -- kind of ignore it just for the sake of it?

@Philo that is because you're a self delusional manchild that thinks way too highly of himself while choosing the easiest points to defend to boost your own ego.

Then insulting people's intelligence because I'm willing to bet your intelligence is what you think makes you special.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm.

Would your elbows/wrists/shoulders not bend? If they don't, that's strength.

Like I said in my head I'm picturing almost like self telekinesis which is kind of what Superman's flying is almost.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Since the thread is already far away from what it was meant to be -- might as well have a talk.

In terms of high-end Thors, where would you place Jane?

I'm not talking solely about 'feats' -- but general portrayal. Jason Aaron's Jane -- would she be in top 5 Thors under any writer? I know motherstorm muddies it a bit but -- kind of ignore it just for the sake of it?

That's a really hard question to answer for me.

All bias aside, Jane was written to be a superior version of Thor, if a tad bit weaker physically, on the basis of how close she was to Mjolnir.

But, it's based on interactions with the hammer that we never have seen before or since, her interactions with it, like speaking to mother storm and being able to use it a weapon or ally when she wants.

Her connection to the hammer would be > regular Thor, but even under Aaron, Thor at the end of time itself didn't have the sort of interactions with Mjolnir that Jane did. So it becomes very hard for me to gauge where to place her. Because obviously she wouldn't be > OKT.

All in all, I think she was meant to represent a "better" version of Thor, but Aaron tried to make her so perfect she became difficult to gauge. Then her feats didn't hold up.

What about a yoke?

Originally posted by Damborgson
That's a really hard question to answer for me.

All bias aside, Jane was written to be a superior version of Thor, if a tad bit weaker physically, on the basis of how close she was to Mjolnir.

But, it's based on interactions with the hammer that we never have seen before or since, her interactions with it, like speaking to mother storm and being able to use it a weapon or ally when she wants.

Her connection to the hammer would be > regular Thor, but even under Aaron, Thor at the end of time itself didn't have the sort of interactions with Mjolnir that Jane did. So it becomes very hard for me to gauge where to place her. Because obviously she wouldn't be > OKT.

All in all, I think she was meant to represent a "better" version of Thor, but Aaron tried to make her so perfect she became difficult to gauge. Then her feats didn't hold up.

I feel like Jane is the one Thor who you can really argue can have Mjolnir fight for her. And I don't mean in the 'spin in a circle and cancel magic' kind of way but actual full-blown telepathic control. And that criteria alone is kind of a big deal, imo. She didn't have a lot of versatility comparatively, but that's probably also due to lack of knowledge.

Yeah, I'm not including King Thor or RKT [imagine King Jane....lol]. I just made the connection now that she feels a lot like Rey to Odinson's Luke.

Originally posted by Newjak
Unless his flight produced enough force to keep the arm straight 😛

I never said he would exert the same force with just a normal punch 🙄 That's been the projection of other people. I was simply pointing that trying to negate the usage of these feats to show his strength is asinine given what the intention is with this character and striking people. Asking for equivalent feats where he is just punching is futile and unproductive as well considering most of his epic feats will always feature him swinging his hammer. Especially when you try to deny access to these feats for said character. For instance there are people who feel these feats are just Mjolnir and is the only reason Thor can perform strikes even close to his best striking feats. Not from a normal physics idea but from a magic idea.

The argument itself is not bad. It's the unwillingness to accept the basic premise and tear off into irrelevant details that are. Like for instance how Superman's flight works. The only details that mattered were we've seen him carry things while flying. Therefore what's stopping Superman from using his flight powers to help out with all of his other lifting feats? Technically nothing would. Which is why writer's intention is important.

Also I looked it up. The furthest a baseball has ever been thrown is like 445 feet while the longest hit baseball is 582 ft. So if you want to say Thor supplies roughly 4/5ths of the striking power feat and the 1/5th comes from the hammer I would be okay with that lol. Once again though physics in Comics are weird.

I honestly believe there have probably been writers who wouldn't think there is difference between a Thor Hammer strike and a none Thor hammer strike.

So show it working that way. uhuh

So how do you determine how relevant it is to Thor's actual strength in a no Mjolnir fight? How do you determine how much is from Mjolnir and what Thor would be able to do on his own? It's not my fault. I'd imagine that despite the examples being few and far between, there'd be enough to make a good case in the almost 60 years. I know there's been examples of him not being able to use Mjolnir for whatever reason. Hell how long was he unworthy? Surely if he's close to his striking without Mjolnir you can make a good case with no Mjolnir showings, right? Decent case? .....any case?

The difference between what I'm arguing and you're arguing is you're literally making up ways to argue his flight helps without anything to back it. Are you going to pretend that's not what you're doing? Or do you actually have something beyond assumption of how it could work?

So, were those two done by the same guy? Otherwise trying to use my analogy is faulty.

Well that's fine and dandy but going to need them actually showing it instead of you saying they probably do.

Originally posted by Newjak
That would be where durability comes into play. If your limbs are durable enough to not break and you exert flying enough flying force to counter act the force of the car falling you could probably achieve something that would look like you're lifting the car.

Like I said in my head I'm picturing almost like self telekinesis which is kind of what Superman's flying is almost.

But that's Byrne level, and MOST writers don't have Superman's flying as a TK bubble around him. Most recent ones don't either. For it to be analogous to Thor, you'd need to have multiple clear cut examples of him using self-TK.

But you don't, so it's not like people attributing X% ofThor's striking power to Mjolnir - with that X% being nebulous,

I mean, surely in Thor's entire history he has some clear cut strength feats (to come full circle back to the thread)? He faces fricking Aquaman in this thread, for goodness' sake - why did celey have to rely on that Herc scan?

Originally posted by h1a8
I agree. I'm referring to the retcon where Mjolnir was currently written as always being Sentient (before Thor was born) and shown to assist in striking and such. Even the scan abhi posted where Mjolnir alone (not Thor) was stated to be able to destroy worlds like pebbles.

And to your defense. I know you understand that Thor couldn't achieve the feat without Mjolnir (which is not what you are arguing as other people here think). You are saying that is still impressive strength feat even though Thor did it with a hammer. We can all agree there. But the question then becomes what fraction of the damage can we award to Thor's strength alone? Or how many times does Mjolnir amplify Thor's striking vs doing it without a hammer?

Honestly comics while fun to think of in terms of science aren't really known for being scientifically accurate. It probably really just comes down to whatever the writer feels would be the right amount. Maybe they think it only partially amps Thor's strikes.

As to the idea of the Hammer being sentient. I would defer to you and Rage on that one because my current knowledge of Thor is a little limited having not the time for comics for a few years now. I don't know if the current hammer gives a stated amount of help or not.

Originally posted by Philosophía
👆

I feel like Jane is the one Thor who you can really argue can have Mjolnir fight for her. And I don't mean in the 'spin in a circle and cancel magic' kind of way but actual full-blown telepathic control. And that criteria alone is kind of a big deal, imo. She didn't have a lot of versatility comparatively, but that's probably also due to lack of knowledge.

Yeah, I'm not including King Thor or RKT [imagine King Jane....lol]. I just made the connection now that she feels a lot like Rey to Odinson's Luke.

She's Thors Rey 😘 spot on.

Originally posted by Newjak
Well if you use the baseball bat analogy that's been thrown out. Some can throw a baseball a max of 445 feet while someone can hit a baseball with a bat to a max of 584 feet. So Thor by science generates roughly 4/5ths of every swing j/k 😛

Honestly comics while fun to think of in terms of science aren't really known for being scientifically accurate. It probably really just comes down to whatever the writer feels would be the right amount. Maybe they think it only partially amps Thor's strikes.

As to the idea of the Hammer being sentient. I would defer to you and Rage on that one because my current knowledge of Thor is a little limited having not the time for comics for a few years now. I don't know if the current hammer gives a stated amount of help or not.

Not stated everytime, but it DOES help. How much by? Nobody knows. Hence, the questioning of his striking feats, and whether he can strike as hard without Mjolnir. Or even, how much to downgrade a Mjolnir strike by, to arrive at his bare knuckle strike.