Thor vs. Aquaman in the arm-wrestling competition.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But that's Byrne level, and MOST writers don't have Superman's flying as a TK bubble around him. Most recent ones don't either. For it to be analogous to Thor, you'd need to have multiple clear cut examples of him using self-TK.

But you don't, so it's not like people attributing X% ofThor's striking power to Mjolnir - with that X% being nebulous,

I mean, surely in Thor's entire history he has some clear cut strength feats (to come full circle back to the thread)? He faces fricking Aquaman in this thread, for goodness' sake - why did celey have to rely on that Herc scan?

For instance we know he hovers and he can move his body in whatever direction he wants regardless of which way he faces. So when he is exerting flying force is he just moving his body or could he just you know make his hand fly in one direction and let it carry him? Things that are fun to think about but have no bearing a real discussion lol

Originally posted by Philosophía
Since the thread is already far away from what it was meant to be -- might as well have a talk.

In terms of high-end Thors, where would you place Jane?

I'm not talking solely about 'feats' -- but general portrayal. Jason Aaron's Jane -- would she be in top 5 Thors under any writer? I know motherstorm muddies it a bit but -- kind of ignore it just for the sake of it?

Wouldn't a lot of her being where she is is BECAUSE Mother Storm likes her more, instead of muddying things?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not stated everytime, but it DOES help. How much by? Nobody knows. Hence, the questioning of his striking feats, and whether he can strike as hard without Mjolnir. Or even, how much to downgrade a Mjolnir strike by, to arrive at his bare knuckle strike.

Hence the quip about asking for Superman feats with his flying turned off by some means. I'm sure you could think of other analogies that would also fit that would put you more at ease to it.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Wouldn't a lot of her being where she is is BECAUSE Mother Storm likes her more, instead of muddying things?

Originally posted by Newjak
Yes but considering that is where the bulk of his power feats come from since that is how Thor is written it seems a waste to just negate them all and leave him with the tail end of his one off feats that only going to be far less numerous.

Hence the quip about asking for Superman feats with his flying turned off by some means. I'm sure you could think of other analogies that would also fit that would put you more at ease to it.

I think the time time you spent on this, could have spent on thinking up of better analogies 👆

Originally posted by Newjak
I mean how often do we actually go into details of how Supes flying works.

For instance we know he hovers and he can move his body in whatever direction he wants regardless of which way he faces. So when he is exerting flying force is he just moving his body or could he just you know make his hand fly in one direction and let it carry him? Things that are fun to think about but have no bearing a real discussion lol

Yes, but this has been the entire Crux of you arguing your analogy. If you complain about people arguing Thor can't even hit that hard and it's all Mjolnir, why argue this? Abhi showed a scan supporting that. I myself am not using it, but pointing out that there actually is at least evidence presented to support that. You.....argue Superman most have the thrust for flight go through parts of his body perfectly to support him lifting something heavy or keeping his arms from bending when he hits something while flying. Because..... you basically made it up to say "well we can say his strength feats are questionable."

So, no. It's not nitpicking for a topic like this, or a hand-to-hand no Mjolnir topic.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think the time time you spent on this, could have spent on thinking up of better analogies 👆

Also I think the analogy itself is just fine so I'm good.

Originally posted by Newjak
Well considering I've done this while doing other things I really didn't care too much lol.

Also I think the analogy itself is just fine so I'm good.

If you stick to flight working that way despite making it up for said analogy.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Yes, but this has been the entire Crux of you arguing your analogy. If you complain about people arguing Thor can't even hit that hard and it's all Mjolnir, why argue this? Abhi showed a scan supporting that. I myself am not using it, but pointing out that there actually is at least evidence presented to support that. You.....argue Superman most have the thrust for flight go through parts of his body perfectly to support him lifting something heavy or keeping his arms from bending when he hits something while flying. Because..... you basically made it up to say "well we can say his strength feats are questionable."

So, no. It's not nitpicking for a topic like this, or a hand-to-hand no Mjolnir topic.

Cause technically how does Superman's flight work right now? Are you telling me he can't make his arm fly and carry him along?

Arguing Thor's strength has nothing to do with his hammer swings is like arguing that jbl's stepmom's breath is all cigarette smoke.

Sure the stale cigarette smell adds to her sultry pervasive breath, but it's not all of it, not by a long shot! You need those lungs unburdened by never having to carry another body for longer than 20 weeks to add to her aura. That slight characteristic changes it from typical trailer mom to a unique scent of delightful stepmommyness and it's ironically a fresh breath of hot stepmommy air.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

I mean, surely in Thor's entire history he has some clear cut strength feats (to come full circle back to the thread)? He faces fricking Aquaman in this thread, for goodness' sake - why did celey have to rely on that Herc scan?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Arguing Thor's strength has nothing to do with his hammer swings is like arguing that jbl's stepmom's breath is all cigarette smoke.

Sure the stale cigarette smell adds to her sultry pervasive breath, but it's not all of it, not by a long shot! You need those lungs unburdened by never having to carry another body for longer than 20 weeks to add to her aura. That slight characteristic changes it from typical trailer mom to a unique scent of delightful stepmommyness and it's ironically a fresh breath of hot stepmommy air.

Originally posted by Newjak
I mean technically if you're durable enough that would also prevent your arms from bending if the force the car didn't over come your durability. I would then compare it to the idea of dropping a car on a large metal statue while being lifted up by the platform. I just thought it was more fun to think outside of the box lol

Cause technically how does Superman's flight work right now? Are you telling me he can't make his arm fly and carry him along?

Doesn't matter if you're durable enough to be unfazed by a car slamming into you to a blast door. If you're not strong enough to keep your arms straight, they're going to be pushed if you try to catch it. Unless you're making up a new power that Superman can solidify his joints and back on the fly, so it's all durability keeping them from bending.

I've seen it speculated that he's actually making space tow him, not pushing against, but one writer assuming that's what he intended (Desaad speculating, not testing). That's the only example I can think of off the top of my head that looked at it.

Which actually doesn't help your argument on arms staying in place. Or lifting things given he's having himself towed. Unless you argue he can do this to objects too, which is even more of a stretch than the thrust going through wherever he needs it.

But no matter how it works, you need more than making something up off the top of your head and sticking with it no matter how circular of an argument it is for his flight being a part of lifting things or keeping his limbs straight to be relevant. Which the later part doesn't even make sense even if he could exert the flight thrust through limbs.

Unless you're AGAIN making things up and assuming he has such fine control over it he can keep them in place like telekinesis. Only Byrne to my knowledge portrayed his powers that way, and even then he never made it official in the comics(editors only let him make indirect references). Like I said, only other example that even tried to explain had him make space tow him.

Byrne had a GL see heat vision and speculate it was TK agitation of molecules(basically a microwave but TK instead of microwave radiation). Last explanation I saw had it a waste byproduct of solar energy metabolization, so what he couldn't be powered by leftover.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Doesn't matter if you're durable enough to be unfazed by a car slamming into you to a blast door. If you're not strong enough to keep your arms straight, they're going to be pushed if you try to catch it. Unless you're making up a new power that Superman can solidify his joints and back on the fly, so it's all durability keeping them from bending.

I've seen it speculated that he's actually making space tow him, not pushing against, but one writer assuming that's what he intended (Desaad speculating, not testing). That's the only example I can think of off the top of my head that looked at it.

Which actually doesn't help your argument on arms staying in place. Or lifting things given he's having himself towed. Unless you argue he can do this to objects too, which is even more of a stretch than the thrust going through wherever he needs it.

But no matter how it works, you need more than making something up off the top of your head and sticking with it no matter how circular of an argument it is for his flight being a part of lifting things or keeping his limbs straight to be relevant. Which the later part doesn't even make sense even if he could exert the flight thrust through limbs.

Unless you're AGAIN making things up and assuming he has such fine control over it he can keep them in place like telekinesis. Only Byrne to my knowledge portrayed his powers that way, and even then he never made it official in the comics(editors only let him make indirect references). Like I said, only other example that even tried to explain had him make space tow him.

Byrne had a GL see heat vision and speculate it was TK agitation of molecules(basically a microwave but TK instead of microwave radiation). Last explanation I saw had it a waste byproduct of solar energy metabolization, so what he couldn't be powered by leftover.

So how do you know I'm wrong?

Also if we're being honest from a pure scientific approach Superman wouldn't be able to move most things he has with pure strength alone either. Most of it would crumble into pieces. So the idea that somehow in order for you accept that his flight would have to overcome such an obstacle without delving into how his strength alone would overcome it is kind of humorous to me.

Originally posted by Newjak
I mean you literally just admitted there is no consensus on how Superman's flight works lol.

So how do you know I'm wrong?

I don't recall Byrne actually going into how flight works in the comics(not saying he didn't, I just haven't seen it). So I can't actually argue one way or another about him giving an official explanation. I can only prove how he interpreted it from his own message board. That he wrote Superman's powers as largely telekinetic. Anything from the comics themselves is indirect.

This is the only thing close to an official explanation I can recall, Desaad speculating.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/1e4k-SimtMjzVHy-lsSlrWdvWhbhnXjKNpCHRMuCMNmy6tfXBM_sjMWYAVV-YmmeDUxtO-_P3n7U=s160

But as for how his powers work, I don't have to prove you wrong. You're telling me to prove a negative. Your entire argument requires the assumption that that's how his powers work. What is your basis for this? Pure assumption? I at least posted something from the comics.

Even if we go the route of flight based thrust from something, you're making a huge leap to argue he can do it the way you're arguing. To be blunt, this has all been really ****ing stupid from the beginning, and you keep moving the goal post. Every time a hole in the comparison is brought up you come up with a new idea to keep the analogy on life support.

If you try to argue that's what I'm doing with the Deaad scan, you asking how his flight works reminded me of it as the only explanation I've seen for his flight. But even ignoring this, you're going to have to provide something beyond "well we don't know exactly how it works" to justify your argument from the getgo and your continued use of it despite it's all a circular argument.

Originally posted by Newjak
Also if we're being honest from a pure scientific approach Superman wouldn't be able to move most things he has with pure strength alone either. Most of it would crumble into pieces. So the idea that somehow in order for you accept that his flight would have to overcome such an obstacle without delving into how his strength alone would overcome it is kind of humorous to me.

Same with a lot of characters, Superman is just one of the few I can think of where they tried to explain it. Byrne on his message board talked about with Thing pulling planes and lifting them(I think trying to fly but I could be wrong) how this wouldn't work because of lack of leverage so he'd try to draw it to be somewhat plausible.

But this isn't the same as someone hitting almost as hard using a weapon made to hit people with using more of a swing than throwing a punch, as he does just using his own fists in a normal manner.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yes but considering that is where the bulk of his power feats come from since that is how Thor is written it seems a waste to just negate them all and leave him with the tail end of his one off feats that only going to be far less numerous.

Hence the quip about asking for Superman feats with his flying turned off by some means. I'm sure you could think of other analogies that would also fit that would put you more at ease to it.

Tbh Superman has many feats without flight being enabled (holding black holes, breaking chains, ripping DD in half, benchpressing the earth, etc.). So it can be fair game to discredit his feats with flight. Some would just argue that flight adds to his punching power.

Thor has many great strength feats without Mjolnir (probably more than he does with Mjolnir).

The problem is that we don't know how to scale Mjolnir strikes from Thor's natural strength for various reasons. We all can probably agree to some reasonable amount though. I would say Mjolnir doubles or triples Thor's striking ability. Some would say more and some will say less. How much extra damage a human can do with a sledgehammer vs their fists?

The baseball analogy is a good try. But it is faulty. Throwing a baseball uses more distance to accelerated the arms. If you only move the arms the same distance as the head of a bat then the throw would be far less distant. Also, in physics it's impossible to hit a baseball beyond a certain distance no matter how hard you hit it, due to the drag forces (I think the max is somewhere around 600ft). Think of throwing a semi balled up piece a paper. We can clearly see there is a max distance the paper can go no matter how fast you throw it.

I can explain the physics of why in a separate post, if you want to know.

Originally posted by h1a8
Tbh Superman has many feats without flight being enabled (holding black holes, breaking chains, ripping DD in half, benchpressing the earth, etc.). So it can be fair game to discredit his feats with flight. Some would just argue that flight adds to his punching power.

He's arguing examples where Superman's flight is DISABLED, because he's speculating Superman using his flight like TK to amp his strength like he's using flight to push it up.

He's trying to argue an analogy, but it's faulty at best.

Originally posted by Newjak
I mean you literally just admitted there is no consensus on how Superman's flight works lol.

So how do you know I'm wrong?

You've yet to show a single scan for your fanfiction.

Originally posted by Newjak
Also if we're being honest from a pure scientific approach Superman wouldn't be able to move most things he has with pure strength alone either. Most of it would crumble into pieces. So the idea that somehow in order for you accept that his flight would have to overcome such an obstacle without delving into how his strength alone would overcome it is kind of humorous to me.

I can't collect this conversation what are we talking about now?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Lol.

Remember when Thor was breaking planets as after-effects of hitting Gorr, and Abhiligend argued it didn't count because something something art. Lol.

There was still no broken planet shown.