!!!The Official Dragon Ball vs. Comics Thread!!!

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... i should be able to find your previous post.

So first off, how do we explain the opening sequence, wherein the south galaxy seemingly disappears? Simple: we refer back to the original(and most canon) Japanese dub/translation of the movie...

Narrator: "The Southern Galaxy has fallen under Super Saiyan attack!":

*The south galaxy falling under "attack" =/= the south galaxy being destroyed outright.

But worry not. All will become clear soon enough...

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King Kai later tells Goku to use his IT and go "check the Southern Galaxy" to see if he could track down the source of said calamity:

*If Broly had already destroyed the galaxy, there would be nothing there for Goku to "check".

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Paragus later states: "[Broly] is wreaking havoc all over AN AREA OF the Southern Galaxy with his fearsome power! AT HIS PACE, even the New Planet Vegeta that we worked so hard to establish will fall..."
https://i.imgur.com/jtYzHmQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7lwE8Px.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yvH9tT5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tjxPpNd.jpg

This definitively tells us that the south galaxy was still intact, as Broly was only attacking a single "area" of it. It also tells us that any potential "galaxy-busting" would've taken place over an unknown period of time, and not in one fell swoop.

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Additionally...

While Goku was IT'ing through the south galaxy, we see him streaking past a multitude of planets and stars:

*If stars and planets were still intact, the galaxy was obviously NOT destroyed.

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Once Goku arrived on one of the planets in the south galaxy that Broly caused [surface-level] damage to, not only do we see another planet in the background, but we also see several stars in the background as well:

*If planets and stars were still intact, the galaxy was obviously NOT destroyed.

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And when the characters first went to New Vegeta(which is IN the south galaxy) you could see stars in the background, and the planet had a moon as well:

*If planets, stars, and moons were still intact, the galaxy was obviously NOT destroyed.

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And just before Comet Camori strikes New Vegeta(which, again, is IN the south galaxy), there are innumerable stars seen in the background:

*If planets and stars were still intact, the galaxy was obviously NOT destroyed.

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Lastly, IF Broly destroyed the south galaxy outright, he would've had to do so in his RESTRAINED-SS state, because that was the most powerful form he could reach while being mind-controlled by Paragus. Broly was never able to access LSS until he battled the Z fighters toward the end of the movie.

This is important because BASE Goku was able to contend pretty evenly with restrained-SS Broly... So if that version of Broly is a galaxy-buster, then you must also be prepared to call BASE Goku a galaxy-buster as well.

But given that even post-Boo saga BASE Goku was confirmed to still be weaker than Freeza, it's obviously quite hard for me to believe that he and/or nerfed Broly, were bonafide galactic powers... Especially when the movie takes place during Cell-era, when Goku would have logically been much weaker at base.

Galan I hope it didn’t take you long to waste all that effort on carvatar

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Carver is the main reason why Abhi thought DBZ sucked and stayed away from it till now.

Really? I saw Ahbi change into his Piccolo uniform. Who made that happen

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Galan I hope it didn’t take you long to waste all that effort on carvatar

Galan just opened his "Bullshit carver says in the autumn".txt

Originally posted by Philosophía
I've been busy with some other stuff, but I'll try to post some scans and stuff today.

There's very few herald level characters who've shown the ability to destroy the moon/planet -- nevermind destroy the moon casually. I'm eyeballing it -- but looking at the tiers -- there's about 200-300 heralds there [low-to high]. Between them they have hundreds of thousands of appearances. Between those appearances, there's about a dozen or so feats of planet/moon-busting, done by only like 5% of them. And then you account for the variance in writers. And those are high feats for any of them.

So, imagine I dunno, God Cable or Magneto. Both of them are mid-heralds. Imagine either one of them busting the moon [with effort]. That would be a ridiculous feat for them, all things considered. That's Master Roshi, in a nutshell. Now, imagine either of them busting the moon with a casual blast. That's Piccolo, in a nutshell. Now imagine Nappa Raditz no-selling a blast above that:

What would you think of a character doing that? High-herald? Very Upper mid-herald? Ok. Now, think that a team of >= multiple Raditz-level beings [Piccolo, Krillin and the rest] or above was nothing to Nappa who was taking it easy and use them as ass-wipes. Remember the small creatures [name skips me for now], that were all Raditz level and were getting plowed [post-training Piccolo casually one-shotted one]? Yeah, that, too.

So Raditz -- high herald/at the edge of HH/MH.
Nappa was shitstomping an entire team of HH/MH [Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Tien all post-training].

Who does Nappa reminde you of, in comic books. Stomping teams of heralds, being far above them?

After you answer this question, imagine that Goku [w/ simple Kaioken] one-shotted Nappa.

And we've not even gotten to Vegeta.

And all of these would get one-shotted by Ginyu...but...I'm getting way ahead.

So...Nappa.

I know what the reluctance is here -- but we can't say that Raditz is a good fight for, I dunno, Black Adam. Then say Nappa is. Then say Vegeta is.

Then say Ginyu is.

Then say First Form Freeza is.

So, if this is difficult, imagine that after each arc, we have to rank the characters, ignoring anything that comes above.

Dragon Ball, hypothetically, stopped at the Saiyan Saga.

I have no issue with this as I'm kind of using my own headcanon for Herald tier as opposed to KMGalan definitions, but it does highlight a lot of inconsistencies in comics. Now this is for purely debating mind you as I don't really think it holds true to feel as the lower beings kind of highlight the feel part of it. Honestly under my definition very few characters hit that tier, so it's probably held a little higher than if Carver were to use it.

For example you can use the feat to say how impressive it would be in comics, but then using it as a basis for again THOR would be underplaying his own feats and it turns into an athletic situation where one feat lower than his very spread out feats is being used as a basis to beat him. While it would be true for his average appearance it doesn't cover his entire range of abilities and well... Cherrypicking of feats.

But then if you grant Thor the leeway you have to ignore the tiers lower than him. Exodus, Magneto, Doom, Iron Man, and many other characters would all give Thor an amazing show in sheer power but would still consider casual moon busting almost impossible. You base it off that purely and you ignore the exaggeration of comic characters here where we espouse their standing on a few outliers.

While I don't have an issue with the intrinsic value of these lower beings being below Raditz, it still doesn't catch most of the outlier feats which have become problematic. Which is why I'm expanding it to Namek to fit under an umbrella of most feats. While that's a huge gap, so is the gay shit that happens in comics; Sun buster who loses to a bullet for example. It doesn't mean I view DB characters lower per se, but it's a level when they can match most feats from that tier.

My own internal thoughts probably match up more with what you wrote though rather than trying to kneel to the forum versions of characters. I'm not sure I feel comfortable with Raditz raping Thor yet with brute power, but it's probably not far off. I'm going to just use the excuse that it was a couple months after Raditz that he did that and ignore Roshi I think. Nappa Piccolo though and it's fully applicable. Once you start scaling up from these still very powerful figures, it looks really bad for the typical Heralds in comics, but this is the life Carver chose, and it's the only life he knows.

wow Galan, Phil, Bran discussing DBZ in the same thread

this must be the super weeaboo convention

Originally posted by carver9
Get back on topic before the thread get closed, please. Stop acting immateur and PM me if you want to talk about this.

is this the internet version of "let's take it outside"

I gotta take you off my ignore you are too hilarious carv

Good post, Galan.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I have no issue with this as I'm kind of using my own headcanon for Herald tier as opposed to KMGalan definitions, but it does highlight a lot of inconsistencies in comics. Now this is for purely debating mind you as I don't really think it holds true to feel as the lower beings kind of highlight the feel part of it. Honestly under my definition very few characters hit that tier, so it's probably held a little higher than if Carver were to use it.

For example you can use the feat to say how impressive it would be in comics, but then using it as a basis for again THOR would be underplaying his own feats and it turns into an athletic situation where one feat lower than his very spread out feats is being used as a basis to beat him. While it would be true for his average appearance it doesn't cover his entire range of abilities and well... Cherrypicking of feats.

But then if you grant Thor the leeway you have to ignore the tiers lower than him. Exodus, Magneto, Doom, Iron Man, and many other characters would all give Thor an amazing show in sheer power but would still consider casual moon busting almost impossible. You base it off that purely and you ignore the exaggeration of comic characters here where we espouse their standing on a few outliers.

While I don't have an issue with the intrinsic value of these lower beings being below Raditz, it still doesn't catch most of the outlier feats which have become problematic. Which is why I'm expanding it to Namek to fit under an umbrella of most feats. While that's a huge gap, so is the gay shit that happens in comics; Sun buster who loses to a bullet for example. It doesn't mean I view DB characters lower per se, but it's a level when they can match most feats from that tier.

My own internal thoughts probably match up more with what you wrote though rather than trying to kneel to the forum versions of characters. I'm not sure I feel comfortable with Raditz raping Thor yet with brute power, but it's probably not far off. I'm going to just use the excuse that it was a couple months after Raditz that he did that and ignore Roshi I think. Nappa Piccolo though and it's fully applicable. Once you start scaling up from these still very powerful figures, it looks really bad for the typical Heralds in comics, but this is the life Carver chose, and it's the only life he knows.

It's why I didn't want to hone in on a specific character but overall picture -- as I want a general accepted placement of the characters at specific powerlevels in each saga. If I mentioned Thor [and I probably have a very different opinion on how many and how good his high feats are, but I digress], or Superman, or Flash [as I said about two posts ago, I don't want individual match-ups to be the focus], this would be "Raditz vs specific character X" instead of what I'm trying to talk about. And I'm sure you agree that in general acceptance, taking a focused moon-busting to the face and not moving is not something even 0.0001 of herald-tiers portrayals support [especially low-mid] . Btw, I went to Nappa first because I also thought Piccolo trained in the time between Raditz and the moon blowing -- but I don't think he did, going by the manga Raditz dies, Piccolo takes Gohan to the wilderness and Gohan almost immediately transforms into a Great Ape. [and yeah...Roshi] I'm not sure how it is in the anime. Either way -- no matter how you take it, the adjustment from Raditz/Piccolo/Nappa and their placement is minimal .

Originally posted by carver9
Good post, Galan.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Galan I hope it didn’t take you long to waste all that effort on carvatar

It's the 10th time he's posting that.

But now, he replaced all the old gifs and screencaps with the HQ/remastered ones.

My mistake, last I played of it was Kakarot and it seemed like it was a decent length of time between Raditz and the moon. It's like the same night though, and they then confirm it with Piccolo's power being 329 after doing it when it was reading 322 before.

Damn.

It's even worse when Piccolo's power goes up to 408 without the weighted clothes, so he wasn't even at full power doing it.

Piccolo is the best and Goku sucks.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
My mistake, last I played of it was Kakarot and it seemed like it was a decent length of time between Raditz and the moon. It's like the same night though, and they then confirm it with Piccolo's power being 329 after doing it when it was reading 322 before.

Damn.

It's even worse when Piccolo's power goes up to 408 without the weighted clothes, so he wasn't even at full power doing it.

They should've included this scene in the manga...

YouTube video

Originally posted by Philosophía
lol, I didn't even take weighted clothes into consideration.

Just assumed it happened later from what I recall of Kakarot and the anime, speaking of...

Originally posted by carver9
They should've included this scene in the manga...

YouTube video

Iirc the anime also had Raditz pod broadcasting a fake moon too. A lot of the anime scenes can stay in the anime. As much as I enjoy it, dragging out that stretch as much as the anime did would have killed the manga.

Originally posted by Philosophia
Btw, I went to Nappa first because I also thought Piccolo trained in the time between Raditz and the moon blowing -- but I don't think he did, going by the manga Raditz dies, Piccolo takes Gohan to the wilderness and Gohan almost immediately transforms into a Great Ape.

I originally thought there may have been a time-lapse between Piccolo taking Gohan to train, and Gohan transforming into an Ape... But there isn't. Like you said- Gohan evidently went Oozaru the same night that Piccolo took him(essentially just a few hours after they fought Raditz.)

And like Bran mentioned- shortly after Piccolo moon-busted, his PL was stated to be 329:

*His PL was 322 when Raditz first encountered him, so I guess getting raped by Raditz gave Piccolo like a 2% boost, lol.

Point being, Piccolo...with a PL in the 320's...can moon-bust pretty easily with a generic one-handed blast:

Flip side, Piccolo...with a PL still in the 320's...seemingly used an all out one-handed blast(in all likelihood, a moon-buster+) against Raditz, and it didn't even leave a goddamn scuff mark:

The list of comic book heralds who can fully no-sell a moonbuster like that is.... Extremely small, to say the least.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
But now, he replaced all the old gifs and screencaps with the HQ/remastered ones.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Piccolo who blew up moon casually was way weaker than the Goku/Piccolo that Raditz mudstomped.

Just assumed it happened later from what I recall of Kakarot and the anime, speaking of...

Iirc the anime also had Raditz pod broadcasting a fake moon too. A lot of the anime scenes can stay in the anime. As much as I enjoy it, dragging out that stretch as much as the anime did would have killed the manga.

See; the problem here is this all assumes their moon is our moon.

I say it is now. And I can prove it.

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Snake_Way

Contrary to what is stated in the original manga and Dragon Ball Z Kai where an observer states Snake Way is about a million kilometers (about 625,000 miles) long, the Ocean and FUNimation dubbed versions of the anime state that the Snake Way is 10,000 miles long.

And here is a map of the DB universe:

As you can see, Snake Way travels across most of it.

This means the entire universe is a million kilometers long.

Or 10 thousand miles, if you prefer the Ocean dub.

The moon is literally just around the block from Goku's home. It isn't moon sized at all, but thimble sized. He could reach out and grab it if he wanted to.

The entire DB Verse is a loony toon cartoon where real world physics do not apply. I bet the sun has a smiley face and drops two scoops of raisens every morning.

I can't believe you're STILL trying to use that to lowball the DBU, lol.

The myth that universes in DB are "small" or w/e was destroyed when the Super Dragon was summoned in DBS, and we saw dozens/hundreds of galaxies on-screen:

And also when Jaco stated there are "countless" galaxies in U7 that are similar to the Milky Way:

IOW, "countless" galaxies that have a diameter of 100,000 light years.

But hey... You do you, cd. 😉

CD the 4 galaxies thing is long debunked. Give it up.